Genelec W371A + The Ones : My quest for the Grail is over

[galanakop]

Maintaining a harem of 16 speakers and 7 subwoofers must be expensive.
Why not sell everything in several steps and eventually become a bigamist with 8361A and W371A?
You will achieve true nirvana in your hippie commune and you will probably forget all your speakers and subwoofers...

bernard 54 in the system you say if you add 2 7380 the difference will be big ???

 

[Bernard 54]

bernard 54 in the system you say if you add 2 7380 the difference will be big ???

I only listened to the 8361A and 8361A+ W371A combo (as well as 8351B and 8351B+ W371A combo).
My feeling is that the 8361A already has great bass performance.
The addition of W371A seems to me an advantage incredible for the reasons mentioned by nai, FrantzM and other members
Adding a third level of bass seems to me a bit "Too much"
Now I haven't tried it, and I can always go wrong and change my mind.
And it must also depends on the size of the room.
It's only fools who don't change their mind
I think Ilkka Rissanen and nai are the most experienced persons on this forum to give their opinion on this subject.

 

[carewser]

Maintaining a harem of 16 speakers and 7 subwoofers must be expensive.
Why not sell everything in several steps and eventually become a bigamist with 8361A and W371A?
You will achieve true nirvana in your hippie commune and you will probably forget all your speakers and subwoofers...

Because i'm poor in spite of all my speakers and subwoofers (and partly because of them). Besides, to me sonic nirvana exists in my lowly Kanto Tuk's and Audioengine subwoofer but i'm sure if I heard your Genelec setup, it would be very hard for me to happily return to mine which is why I refuse to listen to any really high-end gear. Besides, I like comparing the sound of different speakers

 

[ferrellms]

The subwoofer pricing is really stupid. Amazing subs available for far less than half or even 1/4th the price of the 371A, using the best quality drivers made. I think there is nothing wrong with paying a premium for exceptional quality such as with the speakers, but the subs are WAY out of line. I can't see the justification.

As an example, one of the best measuring raw drivers ever tested on Data-Bass can be bought for around $700: Better than Genelec. Fantastic/SOTA amps are available at reasonable prices, and a rectangular box doesn't cost much either. $9,000???

Read up on the Genelec W371 and the Ones and its particular values in terms of directivity, room interaction, and integration via GLM and the One monitors. Unique and state-of-the-art. No other subs can do what these do in terms of managing room and monitor interactions with the listening space. I would like to hear them, but just reading about them is fascinating. It also does not cost anything.

 

[__egn]

Not a subwoofer; W371a has two options, complementary mode or directional mode.

Who here thinks it's a matter of time for others to come up with their own solution to the W371a?
Sounds like it is something similar to Dirac Unison - a similar idea?

IMO, there's little excuse for not producing a good performing speaker - but where ALL speakers fail, is the room.

With DSP we're able to tune and reduce room issues. What is interesting about the W371a are the two woofers in different points in space,
I assume in small rooms, where 'transition frequencies' are an issue, in complementary mode, the two woofers actively working together to improve the response. Whereas, in larger rooms, where the transition frequency is a lot lower, in directional mode is prefered for imaging in mid frequencies.
Does that sound about right?

 

[fluid]

Not a subwoofer; W371a has two options, complementary mode or directional mode.

Who here thinks it's a matter of time for others to come up with their own solution to the W371a?
Sounds like it is something similar to Dirac Unison - a similar idea?

IMO, there's little excuse for not producing a good performing speaker - but where ALL speakers fail, is the room.

With DSP we're able to tune and reduce room issues. What is interesting about the W371a are the two woofers in different points in space,
I assume in small rooms, where 'transition frequencies' are an issue, in complementary mode, the two woofers actively working together to improve the response. Whereas, in larger rooms, where the transition frequency is a lot lower, in directional mode is prefered for imaging in mid frequencies.
Does that sound about right?

There are three modes in the W371A
Complementary is the default and the two drivers are crossed over separately to create a 5 way system with the One's on top. If you were to use it like this it seems a very expensive way to do it.

Directive is where the directivity of the Ones is extended to a lower frequency. This seems to be the most sensible use for most and offers the ability to assist with reducing the effects of boundary interference in the 200 to 500Hz range where many rooms have problems if the layout and treatment isn't right.

There is also a null steering mode where it is possible to aim nulls at problem areas. This could be useful if the speakers are forced to be placed incorrectly for some reason or the boundary interference from one particular area is causing issues.

Directivity and Equalization can be very helpful in dealing with the worst in room problems particularly if you are only targeting a single seat or small listening area.

 

[Frank Dernie]

Complementary is the default and the two drivers are crossed over separately to create a 5 way system with the One's on top. If you were to use it like this it seems a very expensive way to do it.

Using GLM the levels of the two bass units are set to mutually fill in each other's nulls at the measurement position. This is good IMO but I am far from sure if this is an ideal solution for a broad listening area.
It is not likely IME (nothing is, since both moving excitation position, listening position or signal manipulation for room "correction"have their shortcomings)
Good speaker position gives the smallest peaks and nulls though.
These do seem like a potentially good solution but it is hard to check how worthwhile it could be for me here at home without a home demo and a strong helper to optimise speaker position first!

 

[fluid]

Using GLM the levels of the two bass units are set to mutually fill in each other's nulls at the measurement position. This is good IMO but I am far from sure if this is an ideal solution for a broad listening area.
It is not likely IME

This can only go so far when the position of the two drivers is locked. It's a good way to get three possible modes out of single speaker but it's not ideal for any one. It is easier to get cardioid higher up in frequency having the nulling drivers on the side or the rear at the same height as the main driver like Kii do. A cardioid extension box is easy enough to design if you are willing to throw enough drivers and amp channels at it. Having a multisub system below that would be a really good way of getting even response over a wide area.

You can see Kimmo's response to my question about simulating a W371 style speaker in Vituix here
http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php?44128-VituixCAD-v2&p=638702&viewfull=1#post638702

Of course this requires knowledge and experience that not everyone has so the W371A and GLM makes it much easier if you have the money.

If the room is fairly rectangular you get a very good prediction of peaks and nulls from REW's room simulator. I have used it before to virtually move speakers around to find the place with the least amount of nulls and when actually placed there it was spot on.

 

[Frank Dernie]

If the room is fairly rectangular you get a very good prediction of peaks and nulls from REW's room simulator. I have used it before to virtually move speakers around to find the place with the least amount of nulls and when actually placed there it was spot on.

I haven't seen REW's room simulator but I have been positioning speakers to even out the excited harmonics as much as possible for decades. IME it gives a lot better overall in room sound than any other method. Using only computer compensation is sort of OK if the speakers are badly positioned but only in a restricted area.
I have zero experience of cardioid response speakers so far.

 

[fluid]

Modal issues in rectangular rooms are easy to predict based on distances. If you have EQ available then the best position for the speakers will be where the least number of nulls occur as the peaks can be dealt with by EQ. If you don't then an amount of trial an error might be needed to find which position sounds the most even. REW is free and easy to use, much easier than moving speakers

 

[Frank Dernie]

Modal issues in rectangular rooms are easy to predict based on distances. If you have EQ available then the best position for the speakers will be where the least number of nulls occur as the peaks can be dealt with by EQ. If you don't then an amount of trial an error might be needed to find which position sounds the most even. REW is free and easy to use, much easier than moving speakers

I have it now but I didn't in 1995
I haven't ried using it yet.

 

[mkt]

Woofer stands

 

[__egn]

There are three modes in the W371A
Complementary is the default and the two drivers are crossed over separately to create a 5 way system with the One's on top. If you were to use it like this it seems a very expensive way to do it.

Directive is where the directivity of the Ones is extended to a lower frequency. This seems to be the most sensible use for most and offers the ability to assist with reducing the effects of boundary interference in the 200 to 500Hz range where many rooms have problems if the layout and treatment isn't right.

There is also a null steering mode where it is possible to aim nulls at problem areas. This could be useful if the speakers are forced to be placed incorrectly for some reason or the boundary interference from one particular area is causing issues.

Directivity and Equalization can be very helpful in dealing with the worst in room problems particularly if you are only targeting a single seat or small listening area.

Thanks for the clarification - I should check my facts!

 

[richard12511]

There are three modes in the W371A
Complementary is the default and the two drivers are crossed over separately to create a 5 way system with the One's on top. If you were to use it like this it seems a very expensive way to do it.

Directive is where the directivity of the Ones is extended to a lower frequency. This seems to be the most sensible use for most and offers the ability to assist with reducing the effects of boundary interference in the 200 to 500Hz range where many rooms have problems if the layout and treatment isn't right.

There is also a null steering mode where it is possible to aim nulls at problem areas. This could be useful if the speakers are forced to be placed incorrectly for some reason or the boundary interference from one particular area is causing issues.

Directivity and Equalization can be very helpful in dealing with the worst in room problems particularly if you are only targeting a single seat or small listening area.

My thinking was that the complimentary mode(particularly with the 8361) would have the best sub 100Hz response and work best as a 2.0 channel system? I use multisub below 100Hz, though, so I think I'd likely prefer the directive modes for the subjective improvements in the 100-400Hz region. One thing that concerns me is that the crossover is limited to 300Hz, while the Ones only maintain directivity that low in the horizontal orientation.

 

[fluid]

My thinking was that the complimentary mode(particularly with the 8361) would have the best sub 100Hz response and work best as a 2.0 channel system?

The directive mode transitions to omni quite quickly in the Genelec graphs, it's hard to tell what the exact frequency is due to the graph legend but it looks like 100 to 80Hz. Directive and complimentary would be quite similar below that point.

 

[richard12511]

The directive mode transitions to omni quite quickly in the Genelec graphs, it's hard to tell what the exact frequency is due to the graph legend but it looks like 100 to 80Hz. Directive and complimentary would be quite similar below that point.

I haven't been able to find any directivity graphs of the different modes integrated with the monitor. Have you seen these?

 

[fluid]

No I have only seen separate ones not together. The only graphs where the two have been used together were basic frequency responses from the GLM software in one of the webinars. The reduction in boundary interference in the 200 to 500Hz range was quite obvious.

 

[Sebastiaan de Vries]

Says who?

To be clear, the traditional reason for tweeter height being narrowly restricted is because normal loudspeaker designs have absolutely terrible vertical directivity. This isn't an issue with a near-perfect coaxial. All of these Genelecs sound absolutely identical regardless of your ear height. I know, I own them, they sound exactly the same whether you are lying on the ground, standing up, or sitting down.

You are correct. I have often being criticized (and righteously) about my center speaker (8351B) being placed to low. Yet this is the first and only center speaker where I would swear that the dialogue and center channel coming straight from the screen. (thanks to the great ISOpod tilt function I angled it upward)

 

[lherrm]

@Bernard 54 , have you managed to get your W371A + 8351B ?
Would you mind giving us a feedback ?
On a different note, have you had the chance to listen to Grimm Audio LS1 in your audio journey ?
Thanks in advance.

 

[srrxr71]

w371 improves two frequency bands of one, one is 100-300hz, other is 20-100hz. 100-300hz w371 is mainly to solve the sbir problem, this band belongs to the key band, the problem of this band is solved, the impact on the sound is huge. Therefore, one + w371 will sound very different from the general speaker.
The main difference between one+w371 and one+sub is also here.

Given that 100-300hz is the USP of this woofer system (not subwoofer) and people wanting to pair this with bigger mains like 8361a - it seems the pro manufacturers have caught the audiophile bug.

There is no reason this has to cost what it does except the Kii have shown that it sells. Now pro manufacturers can charge audiofool money. It happened in headphones and now it happening with this startup pro manufacturers.

I have a lot of respect for genelec and I think the ones are such incredible value. The subs are pricey but justifiable with the GLM integration. But this is hitting another level especially that you need a pair. Worse is reading how they would do better with 8361 than 8351 when they will be crossed over in such a way the built in woofers will barely have anything to do.

Then to claim that even still it matters and that they will be more “effortless” etc etc sounds like prosumer talk rather than professional talk. They deserve the money for their contribution to audio and I don’t blame them for following in the footsteps of Kii. Reading that stuff on gearspace made me wonder if I were reading stereophile magazine.