Genelec on audio science

[pirad]

According to Nielsen Music 360-2017 research 44%of music listening is done at homes and 29%in cars.

 

[RayDunzl]

According to Nielsen Music 360-2017 research 44%of music listening is done at homes and 29%in cars.

... and the average person has one nut and one tit.

 

[pirad]

The optimist says the glass is half full.
The pessimist says the glass is half empty.
The engineer says the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.

 

[svart-hvitt]

ILPO MARTIKAINEN ON DIGITAL AUDIO

Just before the millennium shift, Ilpo Martikainen reflected upon speaker development. And his eyes were set on the digital revolution. He wrote at that time, quote:

"The digitalization of the signal path is soon to extend to speakers as well. This is not to say that attempts would not exist - there are examples of digital crossovers from 80s - but the audible benefits have to be heard, which simply means that this may not have been the most important aspect of improvement. The currently available DSP-based designs do not yet seem to offer any acoustical performance benefits compared to good analog designs. The homework for the acoustical domain should be done first before attempting to correct obvious flaws with clever digital algorithms. Naturally the time will come when the benefits are audible, and this opens doors for the other possibilities, which can be done, but again, this will inevitably increase the cost".
Source: https://www.genelec.com/sites/defau...ne_Articles/1999_martikainen_studio_sound.pdf

Ilpo was one of few speaker designers and makers in the 1970s who made correct, active speakers. Today, Genelec may be first of all known as a pioneer in "digital" speakers, utilizing DSP for internal signal path as well as for room compensation. So what happened, when Genelec went from being a pioneer in active, analog speakers to being a pioneer in active, digital speakers (they started R&D work on their Smart Active Management systems in 2000 and introduced DSP loudspeaker management in 2006, they introduced a world-first IP Ravenna based loudspeaker in 2016, etc.)?

The Finns learned the hard way after 2000 what it means to be leapfrogged on the technical side. Nokia went from being a star to becoming a fallen angel. Nokia's fall from grace was a hard lesson learned for the Finns, and the Nokia story was of great interest to everyone interested in technology and business development. Would it be safe to continue betting on an analog future? Will we have buttons and roads in the future?

Today, I believe it's less controversial that Genelec's bet on digital after 2000 was the right choice. Still, the change of stance is never an easy one. It's not part of the human mind to easily change one's mind on a subject we have had a strong opinion on. Every day, I meet people and I ask them: Why don't you do the right thing, what we have said we will do? And every time they answer that they will lose face, they cannot admit to the world that they were wrong on this issue. So they prefer to continue doing the wrong thing.

If you look at the state of audio in 2018, almost 20 years after Ilpo admitted that "the time will come when the benefits (of digital) are audible", the big majority of high-end speaker manufacturers continue to produce analog speakers (smart speakers are, of course, all digital). Some high-end firms have started making active speakers, at last, but many are still making analog, passive speakers. Are speakers manufacturers afraid of losing face, so they continue doing the wrong thing even though they know inside that they are wrong?

The last words in the Ilpo quote above are probably more important than many people realize; "this will inevitably increase the cost", Ilpo wrote when commenting on opening the doors for "digital" speakers. What did he mean by this, considering the fact that digital chips and boards are cheap? I guess he meant that going from analog to digital means a change and broadening of skill. To change the skills set in a company is a long and costly journey; so most people prefer to defer on skill acquisition. So we have another reason why high-end audio still is mostly passive and analog; going digital means admitting you change stance on a heated issue, and in addition it means you will need to invest a lot (!) in skills acquisition. Many don't have the mental or financial capacity to change course.

A highly intelligent Englishman once said: "When the facts change, I change my mind. What do you do, Sir?" And I guess this is really what science is about. If the data tell you a story you don't want to hear, you should be very interested in hearing out that story.

 

[amirm]

Are speakers manufacturers afraid of losing face, so they continue doing the wrong thing even though they know inside that they are wrong?

No, they are just going where the market is: audiophiles are still in love with their separate amplifiers. Being in audio is about two things: owning gear and enjoying music. Removing the former is difficult because it is part of the hobby.

 

[Sal1950]

Are speakers manufacturers afraid of losing face, so they continue doing the wrong thing even though they know inside that they are wrong?

No, they are just going where the market is: audiophiles are still in love with their separate amplifiers

Don't forget that speaker manufacturers are part of the big picture and the "good for commerce" approach.
Even as the actives become more available the passives will remain for a long time. Joe Speaker don't want to hurt his buddy John Amplifer by badly cutting his market with a lot of negative comments and advertising . This is specially true in the higher end, it's a big boys club with most working hand in hand with each other and the HiFi media, don't want anything to happen which will kill the market for 6 figure amps and 5 figure DAC's.

 

[sergeauckland]

Don't forget that speaker manufacturers are part of the big picture and the "good for commerce" approach.
Even as the actives become more available the passives will remain for a long time. Joe Speaker don't want to hurt his buddy John Amplifer by badly cutting his market with a lot of negative comments and advertising . This is specially true in the higher end, it's a big boys club with most working hand in hand with each other and the HiFi media, don't want anything to happen which will kill the market for 6 figure amps and 5 figure DAC's.

And this is likely to continue as long as audiophiles believe all amplifiers sound different, and they want to choose for themselves what they consider sounds best. Having a manufacturer choose for you isn't rock 'n' roll.

S

 

[svart-hvitt]

No, they are just going where the market is: audiophiles are still in love with their separate amplifiers. Being in audio is about two things: owning gear and enjoying music. Removing the former is difficult because it is part of the hobby.

@amirm , what you suggest is that profit is the major drive. I agree that profit is an important drive, which I have pointed out to some «desperate dealers» in other cases.

However, I believe there is something more going on, beyond the simplistic idea that you can explain everything by the profit motive. And what I suggested is that natural human biases could be explanatory factors (as well in addition to the usual suspect which is profit).

To make a point: Take a look at Swiss PSI (http://www.psiaudio.swiss/). PSI is a serious, research-driven company.

They’re making a big point about the fact that they’re «100% analog. DSP free». They started up in 1977, with passive speakers. Active came much later. In other words, they’re still where Ilpo Martikainen was in 1999.

This is just an anecdote.

But I think it tells us a bit that a company, which is research-driven, use «100% analog. DSP free» as a slogan. That slogan becomes an anchor that will steer the company from doing the «right» thing.

I believe there are many such anecdotes around; research-driven companies that have become so much in love with an idea that they cannot make «rational» decisions. I guess even Genelec in some cases are controlled by behavioural biases that stand in the way for «rational» decision making. I would have liked to see a company which is totally bias-free.

PS/FWIW: Note that a rational, research-driven company in very good financial health and of high integrity can be expected to make products that are passé, dated. If a good company is to stand by its promise to serve customers in the long run regarding repairs and supplying the customers with replacement units (in case the customer loses a unit or needs more), they will need to keep up making «old», obsolete products for a very long time. Some companies don’t understand this, and so you have Mk1, 2, 3...every year, and maybe other, «hidden» changes as well. This could explain why new companies appear innovative, while older companies appear old-fashioned. The problem for the customer arises when the «innovative» company goes out of business after the first run; which raises the question what innovation in the production economy really is. Just think about it; even Microsoft, which is software, has to make plans based on customers that haven’t changed their software in the last 10-15 years. And software is easier to replace than high-cost hardware.

 

[amirm]

They’re making a big point about the fact that they’re «100% analog. DSP free». They started up in 1977, with passive speakers. Active came much later. In other words, they’re still where Ilpo Martikainen was in 1999.

This is just an anecdote.

For the answer you really need to get the behinds the scene answer. No company making exclusively passive speakers right now will say anything to customers or press about goodness of active speakers. It would "osborne" their current products in a hurry should they talk about something better which they don't have.

 

[Blumlein 88]

@amirm snip

To make a point: Take a look at Swiss PSI (http://www.psiaudio.swiss/). PSI is a serious, research-driven company.

They’re making a big point about the fact that they’re «100% analog. DSP free». They started up in 1977, with passive speakers. Active came much later. In other words, they’re still where Ilpo Martikainen was in 1999.

snip

Sounds like a research driven company alright. One driven by market research.

 

[Wombat]

"100% analog, DSP free". That there says it all about their market. There are still belt driven turntable adherents.

 

[TBone]

"100% analog, DSP free". There are still belt driven turntable adherents.

Not a direct drive fan myself ... so much so ... I've given away many for free.

At one point ... family and friends, kept finding and giving me old turntables. My garage was once choke full of old unwanted 'tables, mostly of the Japanese direct drive variety.

Fed up with the clutter ... I started picking out the best of the bunch, and putting them out on my front lawn with "free" signs.

Well, the teenagers in my neighborhood would walk home after school and they snatched many of em.

One time, I gave away a well respected direct drive Technics. The next morning, surprisingly, it was back on my porch with a letter ... explaining that the turntable platter ran backwards.

I replaced a capacitor and put it back on the porch. He came by that afternoon, was delighted it was fixed, and took it home. He has used it ever since.

 

[Wombat]

Not a direct drive fan myself ... so much so ... I've given away many for free.

At one point ... family and friends, kept finding and giving me old turntables. My garage was once choke full of old unwanted 'tables, mostly of the Japanese direct drive variety.

Fed up with the clutter ... I started picking out the best of the bunch, and putting them out on my front lawn with "free" signs.

Well, the teenagers in my neighborhood would walk home after school and they snatched many of em.

One time, I gave away a well respected direct drive Technics. The next morning, surprisingly, it was back on my porch with a letter ... explaining that the turntable platter ran backwards.

I replaced a capacitor and put it back on the porch. He came by that afternoon, was delighted it was fixed, and took it home. He has used it ever since.

My comment was not to disparage belt-driven turntables but to point out there is a market for previous technologies.

 

[Cosmik]

"100% analog, DSP free". That there says it all about their market. There are still belt driven turntable adherents.

Fixed it for you - as they say in internet parlance.

 

[Wombat]

Fixed it for you - as they say in internet parlance.

Er, um. Any idler-wheel TT adherents? Don't answer, you could start a rumble.

 

[TBone]

My comment was not to disparage belt-driven turntables but to point out there is a market for previous technologies.

I know ... allow me a turn and let me "fix" your reply ...

"is a market for previous technologies, especially those that contain higher dynamic values based on fresher source tapes and superior mastering".

 

[Wombat]

I know ... allow me a turn and let me "fix" your reply ...

"is a market for previous technologies, especially those that contain higher dynamic values based on fresher source tapes and superior mastering".

I wanted to avoid such controversy.

 

[Sal1950]

"100% analog, DSP free". That there says it all about their market.

Reminds me of a walk down the grocery store isles today.
100% Gluten free this and 100% organic grown that. They've found a marketing spin with which to charge 75% more for what I suspect to be mostly the same products.

 

[Thomas savage]

moderator, posts deleted relating to gun ownership , right to bare arms etc

We are not here to discuss such topics.

 

[Blumlein 88]

moderator, posts deleted relating to gun ownership , right to bare arms etc

We are not here to discuss such topics.

Maybe fight club needs a duelling sub forum?






No I'm not serious.