Fuses do affect sound, the question is how much

[Sal1950]

Why are "audiophiles" so into bullshit is the bigger question....

I heard they've gotten bored with just listening to music. LOL

 

[Doodski]

Why are "audiophiles" so into bullshit is the bigger question....

Some peeps get into the details and they fall in love with grandiose thinking and they fall in love with the technology. Some people purchase electronics because they want to participate in electronics technology rather than experience electronics as tool. It's easy to bait these types. I've seen it when I was a audio salesperson many moons ago. The participant type that's want to buy into the technology and excitement of it so they can participate. They are easy marks for sharks.

 

[xaviescacs]

It is not measurement variation, it is real and repeatable.

And has nothing to do with audio.

I would not have used the word "directional" as that implies something different to me than a wire that looks different from one end than the other (at several GHz).

Enough OT from me.

In my opinion, your determination of being objective whatever the circumstances makes this site a better place to learn. Thanks for that.

 

[mhardy6647]

One could say that directionality is caused accidentally by manufacturing tolerances not being tight enough but its incorrect to say that they are directional by design which they are not. It is and will remain semantics.

... or, perhaps, it is like the jocular reference to bugs in Microsoft s/w products as "features"?

 

[DonH56]

One could say that directionality is caused accidentally by manufacturing tolerances not being tight enough but its incorrect to say that they are directional by design which they are not. It is and will remain semantics.

I want to stop responding as eventually Amir will boot me off...

To me, "directionality" implies something like an ideal diode that conducts only one way, or a battery that requires you to be cognizant of + and - terminals. That is why I did not think of "directionality" in the context of this thread (aside from the fact that the effects are deep in the mud at audio frequencies; I have measured dielectric traps that cause noise, using a leaf voltmeter to measure fV, but that is well below the audible level).

At high frequencies, imperfections in the wires (and dielectrics) cause "ragged" current flow due to things like surface roughness (at the microscopic level a wire is not perfectly smooth), charge traps and voids in the dielectric and wires themselves, impurities like stray metals and chemicals that can affect the electrical and magnetic fields, and so forth. These matter when wavelengths get very, very small so tiny imperfections matter. That causes signals to behave differently depending upon how they travel down the cable. For cables at very high frequencies, there is not really much you can do in the way of manufacturing tolerances, unless you can make a perfectly smooth wire and insulator at the atomic level with no impurities anywhere. Audio wavelengths vastly exceed the dimensions of these imperfections, unless the cable is flat-out broken, so this is way outside the audio realm.

Connectors are usually the bigger problem, at RF and audio.

To reiterate, for me directional audio cables fall into two categories that I have seen (there may be others):

1. Cables with an isolated shield connected at one end. This could be an XLR cable that has an inner twisted-pair for the signal and outer shield, or a single-ended RCA cable that has center conductor, inner shield, and second outer shield insulated from the inner shield and connected at one end. Such RCA cables are rare but I have a few; most "quad-shield" is four shield layers that are all in contact for reliability and higher shield coverage rather than having an isolated outer shield.
2. Cables that include some sort of filter or "termination" network at one end, with the intent that the filter network should be nearer the source or load.

Please be done... - Don

 

[egellings]

Use a kelvin connection to make such low ohms measurements-you'll get good repeatability if the milli-ohmmeter is any good.

 

[DonH56]

Use a kelvin connection to make such low ohms measurements-you'll get good repeatability if the milli-ohmmeter is any good.

Not sure if this was to me? I would use a good Kelvin connection to measure resistance, but the stuff I was babbling about happens at 10's to 100+ GHz and I use a VNA (vector network analyzer) for that. With pain-staking SOLT cal, natch.

 

[egellings]

That's a whole different animal. I was simply suggesting a way to optimize low ohms measurements done with an ohmmeter that uses a DC test current for the stimulus.

 

[3dbinCanada]

I want to stop responding as eventually Amir will boot me off...

To me, "directionality" implies something like an ideal diode that conducts only one way, or a battery that requires you to be cognizant of + and - terminals. That is why I did not think of "directionality" in the context of this thread (aside from the fact that the effects are deep in the mud at audio frequencies; I have measured dielectric traps that cause noise, using a leaf voltmeter to measure fV, but that is well below the audible level).

Agreed

At high frequencies, imperfections in the wires (and dielectrics) cause "ragged" current flow due to things like surface roughness (at the microscopic level a wire is not perfectly smooth), charge traps and voids in the dielectric and wires themselves, impurities like stray metals and chemicals that can affect the electrical and magnetic fields, and so forth. These matter when wavelengths get very, very small so tiny imperfections matter. That causes signals to behave differently depending upon how they travel down the cable. For cables at very high frequencies, there is not really much you can do in the way of manufacturing tolerances, unless you can make a perfectly smooth wire and insulator at the atomic level with no impurities anywhere. Audio wavelengths vastly exceed the dimensions of these imperfections, unless the cable is flat-out broken, so this is way outside the audio realm.

Also agree.

Connectors are usually the bigger problem, at RF and audio.

To reiterate, for me directional audio cables fall into two categories that I have seen (there may be others):

1. Cables with an isolated shield connected at one end. This could be an XLR cable that has an inner twisted-pair for the signal and outer shield, or a single-ended RCA cable that has center conductor, inner shield, and second out shield insulated from the inner shield and connected at one end. Such RCA cables are rare but I have a few; most "quad-shield" is four shield layers that are all in contact for reliability and higher shield coverage rather than having an isolated outer shield.
2. Cables that include some sort of filter or "termination" network at one end, with the intent that the filter network should be nearer the source or load.

Please be done... - Don

Also agreed and I dont think Amir has issue here with anything you said. I know I don't

 

[audio2design]

You have no idea what he said and what it means. I have worked with RF since I was little. I used to repair them for a living. Go ahead and show me an RF cable that has directions on it. Go ahead. We will wait. Until then, then only person who doesn't know what he is saying is you with that comment about directionality and sound changing.

Am I supposed to be impressed you repaired RF stuff for a living? Big deal. You obvious have no clue what DonH56 is talking about. Stop trying to the expert on everything here Amir, you are not. You are not even close. You have a lot of good experience in some areas, but in terms of real deep design experience at the hardware and theoretical/bleeding edge of electronics and signal processing, you repeatedly show more of an observer/management bent than someone who has worked deep in the R&D/lab environment. Hate to break it to you, but I am not the only one that observes that. Even on the topic of design of experiments you casually dismiss fatigue (in a pm), which tells me you have not done much in the way of published peer review work in human perception but anyway, I digress. The minions may be impressed, those of us that are not, are not.

AGAIN, I never once said the sound would change. Not even once. I didn't even say anything close to that. About the only thing I say is that a quick mental exercise says I can design something that uses cable construction, i.e. no additional discrete elements, just wire, insulator and spacing, that will have a directional component that could be measured for "reasonable" difference withing a few orders of magnitude of the audio band. Heck, I even described what it would look like. You would never design one that way, but it is easy to conceptualize if you have the requisite understanding, not to mention understand that super position means you can't rearrange the elements from input to output and get the same result, not that you can change the output and input and get the same result.

I guess MFR of high end cables for RF measure both SDD12 and SDD21, 100% screening, for insertion loss just for the heck of. MFRs always do extra unnecessary tests ... or it could be because at those frequencies MFR defects, i.e. inconsistent insulation extrusion, will show up if you measure insertion loss in each direction. They don't mark for direction because they test to ensure MFG consistency. If should be pretty self evident that if they need to test in each direction over frequency, that there is potential for directional behavior intentional or not. It should be. There are high frequency cables that are sold as sets to be used in the same direction. They are for precision high speed measurement.

I want to stop responding as eventually Amir will boot me off...

For me, I am not seeing that as a loss at this point. Information is mainly one way and JJ publishes formally anything of importance (or did).

 

[egellings]

For analog audio signals going over short living room distances, none of that matters.

 

[Grumpish]

I see the directional debate has raised it head yet yet again - apart from low-level signal cables that have the screen only connected at one end (as a ground loop breaker?), didn't the whole thing originate when people spotted the direction arrows that are sometimes found on installation cables, where by the time it has been in and out of a few ceiling, wall, and floor spaces it is very easy to end up with no clue as to which end of the cable you have hold of?

 

[tmtomh]

How much do audiophile fuses impact the sound?

 

[amirm]

Use a kelvin connection to make such low ohms measurements-you'll get good repeatability if the milli-ohmmeter is any good.

All my cable measurements and even speaker impedance measurements use Kelvin 4 wire method. Yet variations can be quite large due to impedance of clamping jaws. I had to develop constant pressure clamping to minimize it. Fixtures used be cable companies is quite elaborate in this regard.

 

[egellings]

I have worked in the industry and am familiar with the problems of this type of measurement as well as those faced using 4-wire power supplies with individual connections for the wires. Typically, if I have the luxury, I'll clamp the force leads far out on the leads of the DUT, and then place the sense leads at the points farther in on the leads where I want to make the measurement. The jaw type leads don't allow that, and I have the same experience you have using them. If I jiggle the connections, I get different results, although often I find the error caused by the variations acceptable.

 

[PipHelix]

After arguing that some fuses "just didn’t have the musicality of" others, a grown man on another forum makes a strong argument in favor of spending more than $200 per fuse. Of course you can return them if you don't hear a great difference. I quote from about 12 posts down on this thread

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/the-new-synergistic-research-purple-fuses

"As my system continues to evolve, there is more body to the music...On vocals, not only do I hear the voice, but I can also discern the personality of the vocalist, even make out their facial expressions.

Percussion is particularly improved, with more dynamics and realism. For example, it is easy to discern the differences between animal skin drum heads vs acrylic drum heads. The correct woodiness of rim shots is amazing.

The piano is tonally correct including the lower registers. A friend brought over a Ramsey Lewis Trio CD this morning that featured a drummer that was using a cowbell as part of his ensemble. That cowbell was in the room along with the entire drumset. You’d have to hear it to understand."

How on earth can changing a fuse allow for anyone to discern the personality and facial expressions of the performers on a recording? What a vivid imagination! And then to distinguish the materials of different drum heads. What a gift to give yourself for $200!

I guess I've got to buy myself some fancy fuses because I can't tell what everyone looks like on my recordings. Or not.

But....audiophile caveat.....I'd "have to hear it to understand."

If only I'd just "trust my ears".

 

[Somafunk]

I hope they trolling the reviews, if not

 

[mhardy6647]

How on earth can changing a fuse allow for anyone to discern the personality and facial expressions of the performers on a recording? ...

That is improved bandwidth!

 

[jsrtheta]

After arguing that some fuses "just didn’t have the musicality of" others, a grown man on another forum makes a strong argument in favor of spending more than $200 per fuse. Of course you can return them if you don't hear a great difference. I quote from about 12 posts down on this thread

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/the-new-synergistic-research-purple-fuses

"As my system continues to evolve, there is more body to the music...On vocals, not only do I hear the voice, but I can also discern the personality of the vocalist, even make out their facial expressions.

Percussion is particularly improved, with more dynamics and realism. For example, it is easy to discern the differences between animal skin drum heads vs acrylic drum heads. The correct woodiness of rim shots is amazing.

The piano is tonally correct including the lower registers. A friend brought over a Ramsey Lewis Trio CD this morning that featured a drummer that was using a cowbell as part of his ensemble. That cowbell was in the room along with the entire drumset. You’d have to hear it to understand."

How on earth can changing a fuse allow for anyone to discern the personality and facial expressions of the performers on a recording? What a vivid imagination! And then to distinguish the materials of different drum heads. What a gift to give yourself for $200!

I guess I've got to buy myself some fancy fuses because I can't tell what everyone looks like on my recordings. Or not.

But....audiophile caveat.....I'd "have to hear it to understand."

If only I'd just "trust my ears".

Hold, son. That way madness lies.

 

[MakeMineVinyl]

How on earth can changing a fuse allow for anyone to discern the personality and facial expressions of the performers on a recording?

The resolution is so high that you can discern the nano reflections of sound off the microphone's grill, which bounces back to the performer's face, mapping their facial expressions, which then is picked up by the microphone again. Kind of like a Sonar for vocalists.