Fuses do affect sound, the question is how much

[egellings]

I remember having a power amp in which the speaker fuse was included in the feedback loop. There was a coupla K resistor across the fuse to keep the amp from going open loop in case of a blown fuse. The feedback therefore corrected for any sonic anomalies that could be attributed to the fuse. I think the amp was either a Phase Linear 700 (Flame Linear!) early model or a Hafler DH-500, don't remember which.

 

[egellings]

If a well-off audio crazie wants to blow money on audio foolishness, that does not bother me. What does get me is the family man who pisses money on audiophile equipment while his underfed kids go around wearing other people's clothes

 

[radix]

It seems to me there are two things being mixed up in this thread. First, mains fuses versus output/speaker fuses. Second, behavior at SHF and beyond versus 50/60 Hz and 20-20 kHz.

For SHF+, granted there are all sorts of directionality and positional effects that can cause behaviors not seen at lower frequencies. But is there any of that in a quantity that matters in the mains or output? It seems a little like saying a discussion on ballistics is not correct because one didn't consider special relativity.

For mains fuses versus speaker fuses, I think those are rather different cases. I would be shocked if a (decent quality, normally operating) mains fuse made any difference in audio quality. There is so much between that signal and the audio signal that it seems really remote. For output fuses, sure I could see that. For example, here's an article from PS audio about how output fuses hosed up one of their amps and they took feedback from after the fuse instead (someone mentioned this in a previous post, but for a different company).

Marc

 

[audio2design]

For SHF+, granted there are all sorts of directionality and positional effects that can cause behaviors not seen at lower frequencies. But is there any of that in a quantity that matters in the mains or output? It seems a little like saying a discussion on ballistics is not correct because one didn't consider special relativity.

This is more related to the "impossible there could be directionality" or "it can't be directional, it's AC" comments. Both of which are quite wrong. When you are attempting to argue a point, being wrong, about anything you are stating, often calls into question your whole argument as you have revealed you are not as smart or as knowledgeable as you claim to be. As this purports to be a science site, best to be accurate and simply state that any directional component is so far below audibility as to be laughable to even discuss and accept that this directional component is because we are using AC signals. You may claim that gives the fringe ammunition, no matter how wet their powder, but like that ever mattered.

 

[radix]

It seems a little like saying a discussion on ballistics is not correct because one didn't consider special relativity.

I thought I was being histrionic when I made that comparison. But consider that a bullet might have a velocity of 1000 m/s (1E+3 m/s) and the speed of light is 3E+8 m/s, so there's ~5.5 orders of magnitude difference. Speakers and hearing are, say 40 kHz (4E+4 Hz), to be very generous. 10 GHz is 1E+10 Hz, so about ~5.4 orders of magnitude. That's actually a lot closer than I was thinking, especially as the rule of thumb is to consider relativity at speeds greater than 0.1c (so only 4.5 orders of magnitude between a bullet and special relativity). So 10 GHz compared to a speaker is further apart than the speed of a bullet is from needing special relativity to be considered (at only 1/10 c).

 

[audio2design]

I thought I was being histrionic when I made that comparison. But consider that a bullet might have a velocity of 1000 m/s (1E+3 m/s) and the speed of light is 3E+8 m/s, so there's ~5.5 orders of magnitude difference. Speakers and hearing are, say 40 kHz (4E+4 Hz), to be very generous. 10 GHz is 1E+10 Hz, so about ~5.4 orders of magnitude. That's actually a lot closer than I was thinking, especially as the rule of thumb is to consider relativity at speeds greater than 0.1c (so only 4.5 orders of magnitude between a bullet and special relativity). So 10 GHz compared to a speaker is further apart than the speed of a bullet is from needing special relativity to be considered (at only 1/10 c).

If I went out of my way, I think I could make something directional at closer to 3-4 magnitudes. It would be really dumb, but a fun thought experiment

 

[JSmith]

an article from PS audio

Great, statements by Paul without any evidence at all... where are his ABX results? Without them, I question the veracity of the statement;

Change the power fuse in a DAC or preamp and the sound changes, depending on the type of fuse you change to.

JSmith

 

[3dbinCanada]

Fuses, cables, interconnects and receptacles are the audio's biggest scams and easily parts the audiofool from their money.

 

[DonH56]

If I went out of my way, I think I could make something directional at closer to 3-4 magnitudes. It would be really dumb, but a fun thought experiment

Stick a diode in the fuse? I suppose there are always directional couplers, balanced mixers, and all that jazz...

 

[audio2design]

Stick a diode in the fuse? I suppose there are always directional couplers, balanced mixers, and all that jazz...

Much simpler. Small gauge for higher resistance and have two sections of cable one low capacitance, one high capacitance. When the high capacitance is close to the source the frequency response will be different than when the high capacitance is farther from the source. I may be able to get within 2 orders of magnitude.

 

[egellings]

Mpingo disks!

 

[amirm]

This is more related to the "impossible there could be directionality" or "it can't be directional, it's AC" comments. Both of which are quite wrong. When you are attempting to argue a point, being wrong, about anything you are stating, often calls into question your whole argument as you have revealed you are not as smart or as knowledgeable as you claim to be. As this purports to be a science site, best to be accurate and simply state that any directional component is so far below audibility as to be laughable to even discuss and accept that this directional component is because we are using AC signals.

Before you claim any level of audibility you need to first establish that there is a difference. Since you did not do that you are guilty of the sin you mentioned. By your logic I can't say the color of my socks don't change the sound which is absurd.

 

[Cbdb2]

Great, statements by Paul without any evidence at all... where are his ABX results? Without them, I question the veracity of the statement;
JSmith

Why would anyone listen to aPauling from BS audio? He's a liar. And a stupid one.

 

[audio2design]

Before you claim any level of audibility you need to first establish that there is a difference. Since you did not do that you are guilty of the sin you mentioned. By your logic I can't say the color of my socks don't change the sound which is absurd.

Given that I never claimed any audibility, I am not guilty of any sin and certain not the one you claim. As well, if you understand basic physics and electricity (well) as it applies to and understand the simple fact that perfect is an impossibility in manufacturing, then it is patently self evident that under some conditions both cables and fuses are directional. That may be well out of the audio band, but it is still true, and is regularly evident at RF frequencies so needs no further validation. A simple thought experiment quickly proves it to be the case as well.

Then again, I don't see people claiming that the color of your socks changes the sound (or does not), but I do see people claiming that there is no way cables can have a direction component, or that cables can't be directional because "AC", even experienced people, and I am not just talking at audio frequencies.

 

[DonH56]

The caveat is that this forum is about audio frequencies, so I tend to post with that in mind, and gloss over things that matter in my day job. I suppose I should make a new sig line that says "everything is at audio frequencies unless otherwise stated".

 

[amirm]

Given that I never claimed any audibility, I am not guilty of any sin and certain not the one you claim. As well, if you understand basic physics and electricity (well) as it applies to and understand the simple fact that perfect is an impossibility in manufacturing, then it is patently self evident that under some conditions both cables and fuses are directional.

You said you didn't commit said sin yet committed it again! You haven't shown directivity in anything yet are making an assertion that it must exist. By that rule, everything can exist and no basis needs to be established first.

That may be well out of the audio band, but it is still true, and is regularly evident at RF frequencies so needs no further validation.

Go ahead and prove directionality of the fuses in RF gear. I used to repair them for a living and not once worried about said directionality.

Until you show such a thing, you are out of line claiming it exists.

Then again, I don't see people claiming that the color of your socks changes the sound (or does not), but I do see people claiming that there is no way cables can have a direction component, or that cables can't be directional because "AC", even experienced people, and I am not just talking at audio frequencies.

You haven't shown this either. You think if I go to talk to Ham radio operators, they use directional cables?

Really, you don't seem to believe in your own rule in any form of fashion. Instead you are assuming that no one here understands RF so you can spit out what you want and have that be accepted at face value.

 

[Cbdb2]

Given that I never claimed any audibility, I am not guilty of any sin and certain not the one you claim. As well, if you understand basic physics and electricity (well) as it applies to and understand the simple fact that perfect is an impossibility in manufacturing, then it is patently self evident that under some conditions both cables and fuses are directional. That may be well out of the audio band, but it is still true, and is regularly evident at RF frequencies so needs no further validation. A simple thought experiment quickly proves it to be the case as well.

Then again, I don't see people claiming that the color of your socks changes the sound (or does not), but I do see people claiming that there is no way cables can have a direction component, or that cables can't be directional because "AC", even experienced people, and I am not just talking at audio frequencies.

Cable can be directional but aren't. Ive never seen a Ghz coax or Gbit CAT cable (real cable, not audiophool stuff) that was directional. We used to test Cat6 cables with a $20k Fluke tester that would would spit out 8 different measurements and pass or fail the, sometimes 300 foot run. And cables would fail. Not once did anyone using the tester or Fluke say anything about direction. The "under certain conditions" is a defective cable. And the directional shield on unbalanced cables is fairly useless because the shield is still connected to both ends thru the neutral.

 

[DonH56]

Every cable in our lab is "directional" in the sense that if you measure from end 1 to end 2 you get a different answer when you measure from end 2 to end 1 (the transfer function is different). Amplitude and phase response is a hair different. Usually starting above 10 GHz (we measure to 40 or 50 GHz typically; in a previous job, to 110 GHz for cables, and 300 GHz for waveguides, a PITA).

None of this has anything to do with audio; it is all about an absolute claim of no directionality for a cable I made without the caveat that I was speaking of audio. Though I suppose you could say at some level the transfer function is different even at audio, I just don't have equipment sensitive enough to measure that low (I think our current gear only goes down to -140 dBm or so without averaging; I have used stuff that went below -160 dBm but only for a narrow band and very specialized). Anytime you state an absolute somebody is going to argue that you are wrong, whether applicable to the problem at hand or not.

 

[DonH56]

I remember having a power amp in which the speaker fuse was included in the feedback loop. There was a coupla K resistor across the fuse to keep the amp from going open loop in case of a blown fuse. The feedback therefore corrected for any sonic anomalies that could be attributed to the fuse. I think the amp was either a Phase Linear 700 (Flame Linear!) early model or a Hafler DH-500, don't remember which.

A lot of amps did/do that, though these days the protection is more likely to be out of the main output path.

I think the Hafler did, though I had the smaller DH-200, and am almost certain Phase Linear did not based on the number of times I had to replace speakers after the outputs shorted the speaker terminals to supply rail and cooked them.

 

[amirm]

Every cable in our lab is "directional" in the sense that if you measure from end 1 to end 2 you get a different answer when you measure from end 2 to end 1 (the transfer function is different). Amplitude and phase response is a hair different. Usually starting above 10 GHz (we measure to 40 or 50 GHz typically; in a previous job, to 110 GHz for cables, and 300 GHz for waveguides, a PITA).

At those frequencies, the slightest variation in construction matters. That is different than the concept that inherently the wire has different transfer function from one direction to the other. I hope we are in agreement on this.