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First turntable - any suggestions?

Angsty

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I'm not sure I understand (sorry), but who uses sapphire needles anymore? They have been obsolete for more than 50 years now.
I’d argue that any turntable that is sold today with a sapphire stylus is not good enough to justify an upgrade to a diamond stylus. Just sell it and use the funds to upgrade the whole thing.

BTW, a used turntable with a sapphire stylus is a red flag as sapphire lasts less than half as long as diamond in use. Worn styli are a major cause of record damange. It’s a good bet that unless it’s never been used, the owner probably has no real idea of how long it’s been used.
 
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Timmeon

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Most of the time I have more than one. :)

View attachment 278883
What turntable is that?

I just chickened out on an auction for a Luxman PD 272 that was nice to look at and apparently has a decent tonearm from what little research I did. Otherwise, I was thinking about going the Rega P3 route. Fidelity is not the top concern, (obviously?) but I don't want a complete piece of sh*it either. I just think it would be fun to be able to score a few used records and make a ceremony out of listening to them for 20 minutes before it's time for me to do the ceremonious flipping and continue listening while I burn some candles, or whatever people do. I'll figure that out later.

Any recommendations with this type of aesthetic in mind? Might be able to spend 1K on a table if I finally get back on that boxed mac'n cheese diet. Thinking used is definitely the way to go.
 

MattHooper

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Of course it’s obsolete technology, in the sense that record playback itself reached it’s zenith in the late 1970s or early 1980s. Since that era, most of the advances made have been more about how much money people can be convinced to spend on a turntable.

I've seen that claim a number of times here (and elsewhere) about turntable performance reaching it's peak back when vinyl was in it's heyday.

But I'm not aware if there is good evidence for this claim.

I certainly understand that the prices charged for turntables these days, especially flagships that can cost as much as a car or cheap house, are fertile grounds for cynicism. On the other hand, many of those designing turntables were around back to the vinyl era - in other words not necessarily being some newbie starting from scratch company. Transrotor, for instance, the German company that makes my high mass turntable, has been producing turntables since 1976. There have been people putting their nose to the grindstone trying to improve turntable performance for many decades, whether it's younger engineers, or those going back to the vinyl era. I don't think it's a given that clever people would not have advanced the engineering.

I understand that of course in the vinyl era there was a fair amount of man-power put toward manufacturing turntables. On the other hand, I find it somewhat implausible that, given the great number of companies, from small to large (like Project) who have been working at turntables since, that no one has managed to advance vinyl playback equipment at all.

I certainly don't know the answer as I don't have the technical chops to vet the claims. But anecdotally, I started off with an old Technics turntable, then moved to a Micro Seiki DD-40 Turntable with an Ortofon MC 20 Cartridge, and a MA-505 Dynamic Balance Tonearm, which were as I understand it, highly rated from the peak of the vinyl era.

When I replaced it with the high mass Transrotor Fat Bob S turntable/Acoustic Solid Arm/Benz Micro Ebony L cartridge, the sound improvement did not seem subtle. It went from performance that was 'obviously vinyl' in a nostalgic way with the micro seiki to "whoah!" nipping at the heels of my digital set up in terms of the clarity, lower noise and detail. I've played records to the astonishment of many guests. In particular my father-in-law and brother-in-law were audiophiles, grew up with a great sound system (I inherited the Micro Seiki turntable from them). They ditched records for CDs immediately because they found CDs just immediately superior. Yet they could not believe records could sound like they heard from my system with the Transrotor table.

As well, a reviewer pal of mine uses a VPI Prime Signature turntable, a DS audio optical cartridge and special phono stage, and it sounds nuts! While it will of course never have as utterly clean a noise floor as digital, in all other respects - clarity, detail, dynamics, vividness...all the audiophile sonic goodies - it seems to easily compete with his digital set up to both our ears (and to some other skeptics who have heard it). In fact I find I prefer the sound to his digital set up.

So, while ultimately I don't feel in a position to settle the issue either way, I do hold some skepticism about the proposal vinyl playback has not really progressed at all from way back in the day.
 

MattHooper

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Any evidence against it?

That's a classic reversal of the burden of proof. The one making the claim - that turntable technology/vinyl playback quality peaked before the CD era - ought to have evidence for the claim (if they care to support it). Otherwise: do you have any evidence against my claim little green men from another dimension are monitoring this conversation? ;)

In any case, my post speaks for itself. I asked about the evidence, and gave my own reasons for holding some skepticism about the claim until I see a strong case made. (I think the claim is probably more of cynical hunch than anything else, as we don't have objective data from the many "high end" turntables to settle the claim either way).
 
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JP

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That's a classic reversal of the burden of proof. The one making the claim - that turntable technology/vinyl playback quality peaked before the CD era - ought to have evidence for the claim (if they care to support it). Otherwise: do you have any evidence against my claim little green men from another dimension are monitoring this conversation? ;)

In any case, my post speaks for itself. I asked about the evidence, and gave my own reasons for holding some skepticism about the claim until I see a strong case made.

Your skepticism is rather baseless being purely subjective. As for evidence, you’re asking for proof of a negative.
 

MattHooper

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Your skepticism is rather baseless being purely subjective.

It's not baseless. It has some basis in reason, induction (and personal experience to some degree).

Generally speaking, engineering efforts to improve a technology's performance tends to yield advances over time: the technological performance gets better.
The examples from human experience are, obviously, almost countless.

Therefore it would be reasonable to presume that if many engineers have been trying to improve the performance of turntables/vinyl playback over the last 40 years or so (and during that time relevant materials and modelling techniques likely advanced), that it is likely in some areas or instances, they would have achieved better performance.

To deny this one should be able to point out why vinyl is an exception, and explain how it is turntable playback could not be, or has not been, advanced.

So...what would the evidence or argument be for this proposition, that it has not advanced?

As for evidence, you’re asking for proof of a negative.

I'm asking for evidence for something someone claimed. If they claimed something that can not be demonstrated, that's not my problem. It would be more to my point ;-)
 

JP

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I'm asking for evidence for something someone claimed. If they claimed something that can not be demonstrated, that's not my problem. It would be more to my point ;-)

You stipulated the type of evidence, not the claimant.

It's not baseless. It has some basis in reason, induction (and personal experience to some degree).

Generally speaking, engineering efforts to improve a technology's performance tends to yield advances over time: the technological performance gets better.
The examples from human experience are, obviously, almost countless.

Therefore it would be reasonable to presume that if many engineers have been trying to improve the performance of turntables/vinyl playback over the last 40 years or so (and during that time relevant materials and modelling techniques likely advanced), that it is likely in some areas or instances, they would have achieved better performance.

To deny this one should be able to point out why vinyl is an exception, and explain how it is turntable playback could not be, or has not been, advanced.

So...what would the evidence or argument be for this proposition, that it has not advanced?

I'm not aware of much evidence that it has to any degree that results in more accurate reproduction. Plenty of anecdotes, plenty of lay-logic, plenty of static thought, plenty of modern re-hashes of 40+ year old tech. I believe there were some dealing with damping and isolation à la what Frank uses, but IIRC even that design is decades old.

In some areas, such as cartridges, going back to 80s tech would be meaningful advancement from what's on the market today. On the other hand, evidence would suggest that accurate reproduction is absolutely not a goal today. You're on the same forums, where people go on and on about sonic differences between cartridges where any sensible descriptions are usually easily attributable to frequency response. MM vs. MC vs. kilobuck MC vs. multi-kilobuck MC. Ridiculous.

Do you really think the best and brightest engineers are staying up at night trying to figure out how to improve obsolete tech? Multi-million dollar R&D outlays? For a market that largely couldn't care less about accurate reproduction (objective improvement)?

I think @JeffS7444 is spot-on: "most of the advances made have been more about how much money people can be convinced to spend on a turntable." I'd actually be a bit more pessimistic than he was. The market wouldn't recognize or care about an actual advancement if it bit them on the nose.
 

MattHooper

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In some areas, such as cartridges, going back to 80s tech would be meaningful advancement from what's on the market today.

Evidence?
Do you really think the best and brightest engineers are staying up at night trying to figure out how to improve obsolete tech?

Yes, of course I do. That is, in the sense relative to the point we are discussing.

Do you really think that the many people producing turntables in the audiophile realm really have no passion at all for improving performance? Like they put lots of effort in to design and production with the mindset "ah, who cares if this design improves a damn thing?"


You may doubt they have achieved better performance (still unevidenced AFIAK), but if you really imagine that the type of person who would bother devoting much of their time (and money) engineering audio equipment have no motivation or goal to improve performance, that would be cartoonishly cynical about human nature, to the point of irrationality.

As I've said many times before here: cynicism is neither an argument nor evidence for a proposition.
 

BJL

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Do you really think the best and brightest engineers are staying up at night trying to figure out how to improve obsolete tech? Multi-million dollar R&D outlays? For a market that largely couldn't care less about accurate reproduction (objective improvement)?
I must take issue with this comment. There is music that is not available in any digital format, I know this for a fact, because I own many records that have yet to be reissued (or that have been reissued in a substantially altered form leaving the original out of print). I certainly care about the quality of reproduction, as I am sure that others who listen to music on LPs also care. So far as objective improvement is concerned,a couple of years ago I purchased one of the new Techics turntables, and they do provide information concerning improvements over the older generations. Now, you may not believe Technics, but I do. The new versions are terrific and a relative bargain (relative in the context of quality turntable prices generally).

To say that "the market" for turntables couldn't care less about accurate reproduction is entirely incorrect, in my opinion. Vinyl playback cannot be easily measured, but that does not mean that subjective impressions are illegitimate. It is the nature of LP playback that we have to rely to a large extent of the impressions of others to the various turntable/cartridge combinations. There are basic objective measurements (speed accuracy, for example), but there are an infinite combination once the cartridge enters into consideration, so the type of "objectivity" used to measure digital systems is simply not possible or so impractical as to be effectively impossible.

But that does not mean that what you refer to as "the market" doesn't care, and I am confident that the leading manufacturers of turntables and cartridges do expend great efforts to improve their products. My evidence for that is my ears, and I do not need an "objective" review (nonexistentent any case) to confirm what I hear.
 

JP

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Evidence?

Beryllium, beryllium foil tube, CVD tapered boron pipe, flat frequency response. Practically anyone who understands the evolution and related performance understands this in at least broad strokes.

Yes, of course I do. That is, in the sense relative to the point we are discussing.

Do you really think that the many people producing turntables in the audiophile realm really have no passion at all for improving performance? Like they put lots of effort in to design and production with the mindset "ah, who cares if this design improves a damn thing?"


You may doubt they have achieved better performance (still unevidenced AFIAK), but if you really imagine that the type of person who would bother devoting much of their time (and money) engineering audio equipment have no motivation or goal to improve performance, that would be cartoonishly cynical about human nature, to the point of irrationality.

As I've said many times before here: cynicism is neither an argument nor evidence for a proposition.

Next you’ll tell me all the people putting out boutique cables, broken DACs, cable lifters, resonating rocks, etc. are working tirelessly to bring real objective advancements to the world. Though I don’t necessarily think most of the people putting out turntables are charlatans, rather I think the assumption that their goal is objective improvement is incorrect and there are plenty of misguided attempts.

The “why” aside, as I’ve already said, there’s precious little evidence of any advancement.

Nothing cynical in what I’ve said - it's fair assessment of what the market wants and what is being put out.
 

JP

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I must take issue with this comment. There is music that is not available in any digital format, I know this for a fact, because I own many records that have yet to be reissued (or that have been reissued in a substantially altered form leaving the original out of print). I certainly care about the quality of reproduction, as I am sure that others who listen to music on LPs also care. So far as objective improvement is concerned,a couple of years ago I purchased one of the new Techics turntables, and they do provide information concerning improvements over the older generations. Now, you may not believe Technics, but I do. The new versions are terrific and a relative bargain (relative in the context of quality turntable prices generally).

They provide marketing literature, but there's no evidence of any real advancement. The SP-10R is a bit more speed-stable than an SP-10MKII/2A, though has pretty much the same performance as an SP-10MK3. Far, far less torque though - that's the tradeoff for the coreless motor. The SL-1200G(AE) are a margin better than the previous 1200s. All are well below what's generally recognized as audible.

To say there's practically no advancement is not to say that companies aren't putting out good performers.

To say that "the market" for turntables couldn't care less about accurate reproduction is entirely incorrect, in my opinion. Vinyl playback cannot be easily measured, but that does not mean that subjective impressions are illegitimate. It is the nature of LP playback that we have to rely to a large extent of the impressions of others to the various turntable/cartridge combinations. There are basic objective measurements (speed accuracy, for example), but there are an infinite combination once the cartridge enters into consideration, so the type of "objectivity" used to measure digital systems is simply not possible or so impractical as to be effectively impossible.

"The market" represents the majority. I care about accurate. I know many mastering engineers who care about accurate (and are quite disappointed in current offerings). That's not representative of the many, who are chasing their preferences.

Assuming competent tracking, etc. most of what defines a cartridge is frequency response which is easily measurable and doesn't change much or at all between different arms. Basic measurements aren't remotely impractical nor impossible, and they tell us a lot.

But that does not mean that what you refer to as "the market" doesn't care, and I am confident that the leading manufacturers of turntables and cartridges do expend great efforts to improve their products. My evidence for that is my ears, and I do not need an "objective" review (nonexistentent any case) to confirm what I hear.

As your evidence is your ears, what does "improve" mean to you? I've heard a myriad of cartridges that were a perfectly enjoyable listen, but no where near neutral in response.
 

computer-audiophile

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What turntable is that?

I just chickened out on an auction for a Luxman PD 272 that was nice to look at and apparently has a decent tonearm from what little research I did. Otherwise, I was thinking about going the Rega P3 route. Fidelity is not the top concern, (obviously?) but I don't want a complete piece of sh*it either. I just think it would be fun to be able to score a few used records and make a ceremony out of listening to them for 20 minutes before it's time for me to do the ceremonious flipping and continue listening while I burn some candles, or whatever people do. I'll figure that out later.

Any recommendations with this type of aesthetic in mind? Might be able to spend 1K on a table if I finally get back on that boxed mac'n cheese diet. Thinking used is definitely the way to go.
It is a Project 'The Classic'. It takes up the design language of the old AR, Thorens, Linn, but is rethought and cleverly made. (Yes, I have owned dozens of good turntables and can really recommend this one).
 

computer-audiophile

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I've seen that claim a number of times here (and elsewhere) about turntable performance reaching it's peak back when vinyl was in it's heyday.

But I'm not aware if there is good evidence for this claim.

I certainly understand that the prices charged for turntables these days, especially flagships that can cost as much as a car or cheap house, are fertile grounds for cynicism. On the other hand, many of those designing turntables were around back to the vinyl era - in other words not necessarily being some newbie starting from scratch company. Transrotor, for instance, the German company that makes my high mass turntable, has been producing turntables since 1976. There have been people putting their nose to the grindstone trying to improve turntable performance for many decades, whether it's younger engineers, or those going back to the vinyl era. I don't think it's a given that clever people would not have advanced the engineering.

I understand that of course in the vinyl era there was a fair amount of man-power put toward manufacturing turntables. On the other hand, I find it somewhat implausible that, given the great number of companies, from small to large (like Project) who have been working at turntables since, that no one has managed to advance vinyl playback equipment at all.

I certainly don't know the answer as I don't have the technical chops to vet the claims. But anecdotally, I started off with an old Technics turntable, then moved to a Micro Seiki DD-40 Turntable with an Ortofon MC 20 Cartridge, and a MA-505 Dynamic Balance Tonearm, which were as I understand it, highly rated from the peak of the vinyl era.

When I replaced it with the high mass Transrotor Fat Bob S turntable/Acoustic Solid Arm/Benz Micro Ebony L cartridge, the sound improvement did not seem subtle. It went from performance that was 'obviously vinyl' in a nostalgic way with the micro seiki to "whoah!" nipping at the heels of my digital set up in terms of the clarity, lower noise and detail. I've played records to the astonishment of many guests. In particular my father-in-law and brother-in-law were audiophiles, grew up with a great sound system (I inherited the Micro Seiki turntable from them). They ditched records for CDs immediately because they found CDs just immediately superior. Yet they could not believe records could sound like they heard from my system with the Transrotor table.

As well, a reviewer pal of mine uses a VPI Prime Signature turntable, a DS audio optical cartridge and special phono stage, and it sounds nuts! While it will of course never have as utterly clean a noise floor as digital, in all other respects - clarity, detail, dynamics, vividness...all the audiophile sonic goodies - it seems to easily compete with his digital set up to both our ears (and to some other skeptics who have heard it). In fact I find I prefer the sound to his digital set up.

So, while ultimately I don't feel in a position to settle the issue either way, I do hold some skepticism about the proposal vinyl playback has not really progressed at all from way back in the day.
Unfortunately, you don't find as much measurement data for turntables as you do today for e.g. DACs in the ASR.

If you know the wow and flutter values and S/N (rumble) of your Transrotor Fat Bob S turntable, then you could see if there were any turntables in the seventies that were just as good or even better in this respect. (I think there are)
 

computer-audiophile

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The SP-10R is a bit more speed-stable than an SP-10MKII/2A, though has pretty much the same performance as an SP-10MK3.
Very good example!

I also used to have an old SP10. But there were even drives with better technical data in the seventies - even if I can't think of them all right now.

Today, at the end of my personal vinyl era, where I don't hang the subject so high any more, a new Technics SL-1200GR is enough for me; it virtually gets everything out of the record groove that is cut on it. As a pickup I mostly use an Audio Technica AT150 with a Shibata needle. The Technics is maybe my last turntable.
 

JP

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Very good example!

I also used to have an old SP10. But there were even drives with better technical data in the seventies - even if I can't think of them all right now.

Today, at the end of my personal vinyl era, where I don't hang the subject so high any more, a new Technics SL-1200GR is enough for me; it virtually gets everything out of the record groove that is cut on it. As a pickup I mostly use an Audio Technica AT150 with a Shibata needle. The Technics is maybe my last turntable.

The original SP-10 (not MKII/2A)? That's the only one I haven't owned, though I do have a curiosity to play with the motor.
 

computer-audiophile

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The original SP-10 (not MKII/2A)? That's the only one I haven't owned, though I do have a curiosity to play with the motor.
It was so long ago (seventies) that I have forgotten exactly which model it was. It had an obsidian plinth.
 

Mart68

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Unless you want to go down the rabbit hole of enormous expense and nonsense, the answer to anything turntable is 'Technics.'

SL1400 or 1500 perfectly adequate and measure better than any Rega or Project. SL1200 or 1210 even better. Maybe put a better arm on one day.

The new-ish Technics SL1200G and GR maybe a bit better again (I thought so, subjectively) but out of budget and not that much better in any case.

Regarding the argument above about progress, IMO an SP10, properly sorted, is still up at the top of the tree after 40 plus years. (yes, I have had a listen to the £100K stuff).
 

computer-audiophile

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transrotor_fatbob-s-tmd.p1140x855.jpg

I haven't found any measurements for the Transrotor Fat Bob S, which was also mentioned in this thread. Does anyone know any?
 

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That arm with detachable 'SME/Ortofon style headshell' - there's a lower midrange resonance built in as 'they all' suffer this aspect...

So much compromise, so little time :D
 
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