First PS Audio, now SBAF? More Smack Talking...

[solderdude]

Ive picked my side, Swiss penguin...

 

[Mad_Economist]

As for noise comparisons with a standalone amplifier... The noise bandwidth is only ~200Hz, not ~20,000Hz.

200hz seems a bit limited given that the crossover point is around 1.7khz, but it's a point well taken nonetheless.

 

[Hemi-Demon]

Correct.

Not to take sides here but everything else is mostly subjective. It is the interpretation of the results and the overall narrative that gets to be subjective. Most of it is very subtle but that is the nature of human frailty. I don't think it does anyone favors by pretending otherwise.

The only objective interpretation is when something is really broken engineering-wise and that is surfaced in the measurements. That is the greatest contribution of this site over everything else.

1. The Panther award is subjective.
2. What measurements to make of one equipment vs another when both do not have the same set of measurements is subjective.
3. The tone of the review is subjective (small irritants like the HDMI not working when connected can send the whole review into a negative narrative and interpretation)
4. How much leeway you give a manufacturer who co-operates with ASR than one who is aloof is subjective.
5. The recommendations based on a trade-off of mixed results is subjective.
6. How you normalize measurement of old and used equipment to compare with new equipment is subjective.
7. The evaluation of a piece of equipment relative to its price is subjective.
8. Choosing to selectively mention that a "measurement is not audible" or "that there is very little source content at that FR" but not doing so everywhere puts a subjective spin on the overall narrative.

The above is by no means faulting ASR but it will be taken as such because there is a false sense that the reviews here are purely objective. There is objective data one can choose to interpret any way they want and as objectively/subjectively as they want but one has to admit almost the entirety of the followup discussion is influenced more by the initial narrative tone set up than each one pouring over the data to objectively conclude.

Once can arguably claim that the reviews here are based on objective measures more than any other site but that is a different claim than saying that the reviews here are purely objective. It would be absurd to believe that people are not influenced more by that subjective tone and narrative than by looking at each measurement on their own with no subjective interpetations.

Sites like SBAF have their own narrative as well and behind all the hyperbole, the point really is the above.

It is two communities with their own identity circling wagons and their own form of hyperbole.

Well done on your part.

Amir is in a tough spot with some of these forum and corporate attacks. He sets a objective standard, that has been consistent and early on tried to keep his "opinion" out of it. Users wanted him to chime in subjectively, since on some level he is becoming part of the standard due to having the so much equipment. Now he is getting criticized on so many different levels, for just trying to help CONSUMERS. I don't recall the guy ever saying he is god of all audio. But hey the companies have to do something to cover themselves. For ever piece of equipment that has looks less than accurante (by ASR standard), there is a device that objectively performs excellent, using the SAME standard. These manufactures can certainly repeat the same tests and just post them, to "shut him up" persay.

What I will never get about SBAF, is the tone and inability to state what HIS STANDARD measurements are. Even in the latest compaint he is comparing an amp to a speaker review (that has been tuned relative to the issues with the amp). All powered speakers contain poor measuring amps, but that is what the DSP is for. There are multiple threads discussing the internal amps of powered speakers. If he wants to talk mess, why not just standardize the measurements, the tools used, and the SCALES on his graph, which always vary all over the place. Yep I just outed myself as a member over there

Man can we just enjoy some reviews, without all this quarantine audiophile arguing

 

[Jimbob54]

And this is all I have to say about that.

 

[restorer-john]

200hz seems a bit limited given that the crossover point is around 1.7khz, but it's a point well taken nonetheless.

My first thoughts were a subwoofer plate amp, not the full range JBL.

 

[watchnerd]

Amidst the strung und drang and general slant, I thought SBF actually raised some salient points.

 

[MakeMineVinyl]

If we don't like the year 2020, can we return it and get a better year?

 

[AnalogSteph]

Should this necessarily be the case, though? We could set a different bar for active speaker amplifiers if we want to, but you can cram a Purifi/Hypex module in there with some elbow grease.

Of course. And a few actually do. Then you can add about 20 dB to the price though.

I'm not averse to saying "this amplifier measures meaningfully better than that one", but I start to get pretty leery when we're calling products meant to be listened to bad because of nonlinearities we don't hear - I think a lot of less versed people get misimpressions about where their money is best spent, among other things.

Of course. But -70 dB H3 at 1 kHz, 5 W level (as seen in the T758 example) isn't what I'd call "safely inaudible". (If that's at 1 kHz, what's it doing at 10, or IMD wise? Or at higher power?) It's 2020, and <-80 dB THD at reasonable levels really isn't too much to ask for in any full-range electronics with any kind of half-decent component budget at all. State of the art has gone way past that. Of course nobody needs sub-ppm level distortion, but if you fail to clear the bar set in the 1980s despite having all the necessary means that's not really very good engineering, is it?

What we absolutely need and what we should be getting for the price are two different things. For example, DACs have been so good for decades that, in general, you really have to try to make one that sounds bad. It's good to know that even a fairly inexpensive one is likely to be transparent in typical applications, but a higher-priced one with higher-spec parts better deliver higher measured performance as well. (There are a few applications that actually demand higher performance than you might first think, notably directly driving a power amp.)

 

[The Dragon]

I think SBAF's Purr1n has finally found his inner redneck and it is now on full display for all to see. Personally, I never liked SBAF - and I did try. Self aggrandizing bunch of audio bullies for the most part. SBAF is a very unpleasant place unless you happen to be one of the "accepted" posters. Those of a feather.... They are either constantly bashing a product, a group of people, or falling all over themselves patting each other on the back, or over a new product that one of their sponsors is about to introduce or has recently introduced. Watch the bullies come out in force when another forum expresses a disagreeable view of one of their "protected" or favorite products. There is no objectivity over there at all - period. In comparison, ASR is more of an honest broker forum. Subjective or opinionated "this sounds better than that" is left to the individual - where it belongs.

I have had my fill of audio forums with a membership of highly opinionated blowhards who denigrate everyone who disagrees as either ignorant or moronic. I used to post over at AK on a daily basis. However, I lost interest because of a few of these narcissistic forum bullies. I couldn't believe the moderators did nothing about them. I think there must have been a reluctance to act due to the "standing" two of these bullies had in the forum. The moderators finally moved them along. So, I have started to participate again, but with a much reduced level of interest. As far as I am concerned, SBAF can discuss whatever they like. Purr1n is just expressing his deep need for excessive attention and admiration.

 

[Jimbob54]

Your photoshop skills are improving ;-)

 

[Martin]

So ... Chicago deep dish pizza?

I like Chicago deep dish, New York thin crust, Detroit deep dish and St. Louis thin & crispy crust; even white pizzas. I love all pizza. Just don’t put pineapple on it and we won’t have a problem.

Martin

 

[sweetchaos]

They just linked to this thread...and caused an infinite loop.

*Karen broke the internet again*

 

[blueone]

I suppose people with controversial opinions make for lively discussion, but does SBAF really matter to anyone here? I’m here for Amir’s reviews, some too infrequent explanatory posts by technical experts, and hearing about personal use experiences for the equipment I’m interested in. No other site I’ve found has this combination of value adds. There are fun threads I occasionally get drawn into, but they could go away and it wouldn’t change my attention or participation much. There are no distracting ads, no pandering to manufacturers, and free testing if you want. Sounds like Christmas year-round to me. If SBAF wants to diss ASR, I couldn’t care less, so long as I don’t have to help pay for their web site.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

The worst pandemic in the world right now isn't Covid-19, it's obviously Stupidity-101.

They are not unrelated.

 

[MustBeDeaf]

I must have missed it, what did PS Audio say about ASR?

 

[MakeMineVinyl]

I must have missed it, what did PS Audio say about ASR?

Nothing to see here, move along......

 

[Mad_Economist]

Of course. But -70 dB H3 at 1 kHz, 5 W level (as seen in the T758 example) isn't what I'd call "safely inaudible". (If that's at 1 kHz, what's it doing at 10, or IMD wise? Or at higher power?) It's 2020, and <-80 dB THD at reasonable levels really isn't too much to ask for in any full-range electronics with any kind of half-decent component budget at all. State of the art has gone way past that. Of course nobody needs sub-ppm level distortion, but if you fail to clear the bar set in the 1980s despite having all the necessary means that's not really very good engineering, is it?

What we absolutely need and what we should be getting for the price are two different things. For example, DACs have been so good for decades that, in general, you really have to try to make one that sounds bad. It's good to know that even a fairly inexpensive one is likely to be transparent in typical applications, but a higher-priced one with higher-spec parts better deliver higher measured performance as well. (There are a few applications that actually demand higher performance than you might first think, notably directly driving a power amp.)

Assuming that we're in consensus that a 3rd harmonic at -70dB isn't going to be audible under any circumstances - which is how I read you - it would seem to me that the way to see how the amplifier would do at difference frequencies and levels would be testing those frequencies and levels, generally - depending on the amplifier's specifics, how it behaves under other circumstances may not be easily inferred from one test level, load, and frequency, and I'd love to see something more like powercube measurements if we wanted to peer more deeply into amp behavior.

If you'll forgive me being blunt, here, however, I'd like to ask why we should necessarily be getting more linear measurements at a given price? Certainly, to me that's valuable, but to some people, the exact metallurgy of the internal wiring is valuable, and I'd be quite ornery if they started telling me that I should be getting solid electrum internal wiring and that any product without it was below my consideration (even if at a given price point). Indeed, I have heard that - people have told me of the merits of point-to-point wiring, of strange materials used in the construction, and so on, and when I've (as politely as I can) brushed them off, it's usually been with "I highly doubt that I can hear the difference", so it only seems fair to apply that same standard to my own preference for lots of zeros after the decimal point.

 

[RayDunzl]

Active speakers are a holistic product and tested and used as such. You can't start pulling out the amplifier section and testing it the same way as a power amplifier. For a start, many have significant EQ or DSP built in to the front end and will give meaningless results and/or they are tailored specifically to the impedance characteristics of the bass driver itself.

I use DSP.

The graph below is a representative measurement of the signal level and phase emitted from the amplifier during a frequency sweep. Without the DSP they'd essentially be flat lines:

Without DSP:

 

[North_Sky]

In his very first paragraph he objects to drama; that is exactly what he just created...nice fellow.

"A while back, a few members suggested that we do a review of Audio Science Review. I didn't think it was a good idea back then because I wanted to avoid drama. Now I think it's about time."

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1299188805954662400

 

[MustBeDeaf]

Amir and Marv should get together, talk and measure equipment over a few beers. Or at-least let Amir in the lion's den that is SBAF for rebuttal.