First MC Cartridge

[watchnerd]

the anti-skate was hard to get right and I never nailed it,.

I thought VPI didn't believe in anti skate....

 

[deniall83]

I thought VPI didn't believe in anti skate....

I think you’re right. Nevertheless it’s there and a bit of a pain to dial in. I always had sibilance with that table as a result.

 

[watchnerd]

I think you’re right. Nevertheless it’s there and a bit of a pain to dial in. I always had sibilance with that table as a result.

I don't know if I've ever had bad anti skate cause sibilance. For me, it's usually been alignment.

That being said, every anti skate system is a compromise. I've had string-based systems (Pro Ject, SME) and spring-based systems (Jelco). They're all approximate.

Doesn't VPI have some weird thing with twisting the tonearm cord or something?

 

[deniall83]

I don't know if I've ever had bad anti skate cause sibilance. For me, it's usually been alignment.

That being said, every anti skate system is a compromise. I've had string-based systems (Pro Ject, SME) and spring-based systems (Jelco). They're all approximate.

Doesn't VPI have some weird thing with twisting the tonearm cord or something?

Yeah, I spent months trying to work out what the issue was as I never had sibilance with my Rega. I thought it might be the elliptical stylus on my cart so I splurged on a Benz Ace SL and I still had issues. I have some good set up tools so I tried multiple alignment options with no improvement. Eventually I got tired of fiddling and sold the VPI. Bought a PLX-1000 and still had issues. I started reading about the Soundsmith method of setting anti-skate, tried it and it fixed all my issues. I had to turn the dial up to 4 on the PLX-1000 to achieve correct skating but once I got it dialed in, the sound was really good and I learnt a lot about how all these things can affect the sound. I hadn’t even considered it was a skating issue previously and had assumed like you that it was alignment related.

VPI uses a unique and highly adjustable system that is also extremely fiddly. You can add rubber weights, twist wires etc to achieve the desired result.

 

[watchnerd]

VPI uses a unique and highly adjustable system that is also extremely fiddly. You can add rubber weights, twist wires etc to achieve the desired result.

Jeez, I don't know why they felt the need to do something screwy and different. Especially with an integrated arm/TT combo where everything is a system and nobody gives you extra points for having "unique" anti skate.

That looks insanely complicated.

My SME just uses a weight on a fishing line. The only variables are which notch in the peg according to VTF, and angling the fishing line so it's perpendicular to the record.

 

[Tom C]

The VPI is essentially the same: nylon line, with rubber rings for weights and an adjustable pivot. Harry Weisfeld doesn’t like anti-skate, but includes it for his customers that do. He says the twist in the line you were talking about is enough, but you can add more using the weights and line. But they are also all defeatable.

 

[Tom C]

I hear you about the cats. My Nick thinks he’s a DJ.

 

[watchnerd]

I hear you about the cats. My Nick thinks he’s a DJ.

Mine are scared of the Michell.

They stay away from it.

I think the whirling weights scare them.

 

[Frank Dernie]

I thought VPI didn't believe in anti skate....

That is like not believing in gravity.
Since the drag force varies depending on stylus, tracking force, modulation and radius it can never be 100% perfectly compensated but "not believing" just another bit of technical illiteracy the LP movement its steeped in.

 

[watchnerd]

That is like not believing in gravity.
Since the drag force varies depending on stylus, tracking force, modulation and radius it can never be 100% perfectly compensated but "not believing" just another bit of technical illiteracy the LP movement its steeped in.

Well, to be fair.

I didn't mean to imply they don't think the skating effect doesn't exist.

I think Harry Weisfeld doesn't think it's worth bothering doing anything about it and that the VPI arms sound better without it.

"What is your opinion of the merits of side-thrust compensation or “anti-skate”?
I never use anti-skate adjustments in my own listening. I can always hear it working since the record hole is almost never centered. This means the anti-skate adjustment is working full time to engage and release at different rates, not for me."

https://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/ahc-talks-with-vpi-founder-harry-weisfeld/

 

[Tom C]

Right. Like the Rega guy, Roy Gandy doesn’t include VTA adjustment for his arm. Not that he totally doesn’t believe in it, just feels the trade-offs are not worth the implementation.

 

[DSJR]

I've seen the results on incorrect bias correction (anti-skate) of lop-sided styli wear as viewed under a proper microscope! I have a crude way of getting it almost right (in addition to listening to 'hot cut' sibilant tracks) but best not to share here as it'll be pulled apart.

As for VTA, I don't totally agree with Rega's Roy Gandy (and I've spoken to him face to face on such matters), but the corporate view remains to this day and anyway, VTA can be fine tuned with tracking force adjustment 1/10g each way if tracking/tracing ability allows it (I was told 1/10g at the stylus tip can be equivalent of 2mm pillar height adjustment once cantilever leverage is taken into account). Such a huge can-o-worms this one as the set of diamonds can be way off from the ideal (I remember some of it being japanese vinyl being a softer? compound and needing more rake angle - or summat )

 

[watchnerd]

I have a crude way of getting it almost right (in addition to listening to 'hot cut' sibilant tracks)

I don't believe you.

Because skating effect changes across the record and by track density of the pressing, all VTA "solutions" are a compromise, even on a perfectly circular disc.

 

[DSJR]

I don't believe you.

Because skating effect changes across the record and by track density of the pressing, all VTA "solutions" are a compromise, even on a perfectly circular disc.

You're being anal about it. It's a total bodge (being polite - compromise) whatever level of vinyl playback you use as the stylus profile dictates it more than anything else and many tonearms seem to get it wrong anyway in my past experience. My 'almost right' compromise is fine for me and at least my diamonds don't wear out lop-sided

 

[watchnerd]

You're being anal about it. It's a total bodge (being polite - compromise) whatever level of vinyl playback you use as the stylus profile dictates it more than anything else and many tonearms seem to get it wrong anyway in my past experience. My 'almost right' compromise is fine for me and at least my diamonds don't wear out lop-sided

Indeed.

So what's this secret method?

 

[DSJR]

Not telling for fear of annihilation...

Anti SKATE right - on a clear rotating surface? Very *very* approximate and doesn't work for some MC's with really fancy tips, but for general run-of-mill conical, elliptical (even the Vital type) it seems fine. I have here a very low hours (minutes really) Ortofon MC30 Super and this thing needs 1.8g downforce pretty much yet the anti-skate need is huge and higher than a Shibata type. Stylus is a beautifully ground and polished multi-facet diamond (FG1 type) and in the right arm, the clean clear highs can integrate with the bass quite nicely. Stick it on a mid 80's LP12/Ittok as I did with my first one and the bass goes to pieces, over-emphasising the highs too much.

Good disssssssssc for hot hf - original UK issue of 'Phantoms' by The Fixx. Here's a YouTube link of one favourite track

(My capitals on the 'sssibilants')


"Pictures chaSe across the Ceiling
As I try to Sleep at night
There's a voiCe inSide my darkneSS
Laughing at the life I've lost"

I love this album regardless and have found you don't need to spend a fortune on a player to reproduce the vinyl acceptably. Bass line is good for Tune Dem evaluations of a stereo system too, but I won't labour that bit as many audio people think it's a joke (I used to get the 'humming along with the tunes' bit but less the 'pr@t factor' - our older UK-based members will know what the eff I'm on about )


Currently, I don't own a high falutin' turntable system as I enjoy messing around with vintage Lenco's, Garrards and Duals with the odd Technics 1500 and Thorens thrown in. I come at vinyl with very low expectations and end up pleasantly surprised quite often how nice it can sound.

 

[watchnerd]

Not telling for fear of annihilation...

Anti SKATE right - on a clear rotating surface? Very *very* approximate and doesn't work for some MC's with really fancy tips, but for general run-of-mill conical, elliptical (even the Vital type) it seems fine. I have here a very low hours (minutes really) Ortofon MC30 Super and this thing needs 1.8g downforce pretty much yet the anti-skate need is huge and higher than a Shibata type. Stylus is a beautifully ground and polished multi-facet diamond (FG1 type) and in the right arm, the clean clear highs can integrate with the bass quite nicely. Stick it on a mid 80's LP12/Ittok as I did with my first one and the bass goes to pieces, over-emphasising the highs too much.

Good disssssssssc for hot hf - original UK issue of 'Phantoms' by The Fixx. Here's a YouTube link of one favourite track

(My capitals on the 'sssibilants')


"Pictures chaSe across the Ceiling
As I try to Sleep at night
There's a voiCe inSide my darkneSS
Laughing at the life I've lost"

I love this album regardless and have found you don't need to spend a fortune on a player to reproduce the vinyl acceptably.


Currently, I don't own a high falutin' turntable system as I enjoy messing around with vintage Lenco's, Garrards and Duals with the odd Technics 1500 and Thorens thrown in. I come at vinyl with very low expectations and end up pleasantly surprised quite often how nice it can sound.

I'm not following what your method was, though.

Did you use a blank LP?

A piece of glass?

Or maybe I'm misunderstanding.

 

[DSJR]

No, not misunderstanding me at all Plenty of LP's with wide lead-out grooves if they're flat enough and not dished either way. Your mileage may well vary and I'm not recommending it as a universal cure-all. It's VINYL, so all bets are off and one does what one feels is best. I only 'know' this shit because I spent decades setting the bloody things up, checking styli and replacing same or the entire cartridge at various levels from basic Garrards to madness prices (and still do when I can, despite being a digiphile really).

 

[watchnerd]

No, not misunderstanding me at all Plenty of LP's with wide lead-out grooves if they're flat enough and not dished either way. Your mileage may well vary and I'm not recommending it as a universal cure-all. It's VINYL, so all bets are off and one does what one feels is best. I only 'know' this shit because I spent decades setting the bloody things up, checking styli and replacing same or the entire cartridge at various levels from basic Garrards to madness prices (and still do when I can, despite being a digiphile really).

I'm using a Shibata right now.

Tracks like a mofo just using the 'by-the-book' VTR on a notch set-by-string weight of my SME M2-9R.

 

[deniall83]

No, not misunderstanding me at all Plenty of LP's with wide lead-out grooves if they're flat enough and not dished either way. Your mileage may well vary and I'm not recommending it as a universal cure-all. It's VINYL, so all bets are off and one does what one feels is best. I only 'know' this shit because I spent decades setting the bloody things up, checking styli and replacing same or the entire cartridge at various levels from basic Garrards to madness prices (and still do when I can, despite being a digiphile really).

If I'm understanding you correctly, your method sounds a lot like the Soundsmith method which I attribute to fixing most of the issues I was having with LP playback.

https://www.sound-smith.com/faq/how-do-i-adjust-anti-skating-my-cartridge