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First MC Cartridge

watchnerd

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No, not misunderstanding me at all ;) Plenty of LP's with wide lead-out grooves if they're flat enough and not dished either way. Your mileage may well vary and I'm not recommending it as a universal cure-all. It's VINYL, so all bets are off and one does what one feels is best. I only 'know' this shit because I spent decades setting the bloody things up, checking styli and replacing same or the entire cartridge at various levels from basic Garrards to madness prices (and still do when I can, despite being a digiphile really).

I still don't understand what you did.

You have a problematic record with challenging tracks and you used that to tweak anti skate until the sibilance problem went away?
 

DSJR

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Anti-skate and tracking force tweaks - varies with the cartridge and turntable system used. It would appear (subjectively) that tonearm resonances at different frequencies can have an effect too (not that this is remotely an issue for your arm in fairness, but the old low mass 3009 II 'Improved' wasn't so 'kind' here).

This goes back decades as I used to do this for a living as part of my job. An easy, quick, fairly accurate way of setting up a tonearm and cartridge for a client and confirmed as ok when the stylus comes back hundreds of playing hours later to be checked under a microscope! Current Shibata styli seem excellent and a development on the 1970's types. SME thread-weight settings used to be slightly high by 1/4g or so with elliptical (but not the dial types on 309's upwards). For your stylus, the M2-9 should be spot on as you've discovered :D

First MC cartridge? I've always respected the AT OC9ML type and I do want to try the current basic elliptical models to see how they fare. Both should be more fun under £/$300 than the overdamped and slightly too 'safe sounding' Denon DL110 which has quietly rocketed in price since 2008 or so.
 
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anmpr1

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Well, to be fair. I didn't mean to imply they don't think the skating effect doesn't exist. I think Harry Weisfeld doesn't think it's worth bothering doing anything about it and that the VPI arms sound better without it.

If it's important it's important. However, in the scheme of analog records, there are other things that make a bigger difference. At least in my experience. I was using a Grace G-707 arm until I accidentally broke the little nylon antiskate wire while changing a cartridge. Try finding a new one! The thing is, though, I honestly couldn't tell any difference in sound without the device. In a different arm, with a different cart, who knows?

I find the effects of tracking error more audible. In spite of the player's other drawbacks, to me the Garrard pantograph arm sounds so much cleaner and crisper than fixed pivot arms. I attribute that to the elimination of tracking error.

FWIW the (notorious) Garrard arm uses magnetic anti-skating. I've been advised that over time the magnets weaken. The deck is almost 50 years old. I set it, but have no idea if it is really working.

PS: 1) I've used the Shure TTR record to set anti-skate. With test tones one can often 'hear' channel mismatch that is supposed to indicate a skating effect. Depending on the cartridge/arm, making the adjustment might not really change the spread of the 'rasping' sound.

2) If I ever encounter mistracking I simply increase the tracking force. That always 'solves' the problem. I've found that typically the 'higher' of the manufacturer ranges is best. I set the M97xE at 1.5g and add another 0.5 for the brush. I set the XV15-1200e (681ee) for 1.5g, and another 1g for brush. AT 740ML works fine at it's rated 2g. Denon DL-160 and DL-110 about 1.8g. DL-103 2.5g.

Unless one is using a really old design (like the Denon DL103) I haven't found mistracking or high distortion a problem with my records. Even with the 103 it has not been an issue as long as the arm works with the cartridge (the Denon is a bit on the stiff side in compliance). Of course my records are old, and possibly the highs have been sheared off from repeated playings. That would not surprise me. My hearing shears off in the low highs at my age, so that is that.

With records, there are so many variables. You change one setting you are probably causing something else to change.
 
OP
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Regarding my OP, I ended up getting a Hana SL at a great price instead of the Hana EL. But, as fate would have it, I now don’t have my turntable. My VPI got sent back to the factory to repair a gap that developed between the metal top plate and the Delrin base of the plinth. Still waiting to enjoy my first MC cartridge. :facepalm:
 

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watchnerd

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Regarding my OP, I ended up getting a Hana SL at a great price instead of the Hana EL. But, as fate would have it, I now don’t have my turntable. My VPI got sent back to the factory to repair a gap that developed between the metal top plate and the Delrin base of the plinth. Still waiting to enjoy my first MC cartridge. :facepalm:

That's just nature telling you to get a Technics SL-1200GR to listen to your new cart while the Traveler is in the shop and then sell it when it gets back. ;)
 
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That's just nature telling you to get a Technics SL-1200GR to listen to your new cart while the Traveler is in the shop and then sell it when it gets back.

The sad part is that I have a Pioneer PLX-1000 sitting in the VPI spot, but I won’t put the Hana on it. I discovered the PLX headshell has an azimuth problem that doesn’t seem to be an issue for my elliptical stylus, but the Hana has a Shibata that may require more careful set up. The fix is an azimuth adjustable headshell from Jelco, which is on the way.

But, that’s how I found out that 100-year old Jelco is closing up shop permanently, largely due to COVID-19. :(
 
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watchnerd

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The sad part is that I have a Pioneer PLX-1000 sitting in the VPI spot, but I won’t put the Hana on it. I discovered the PLX headshell has an azimuth problem that doesn’t seem to be an issue for my elliptical stylus, but the Hana has a Shibata that may require more careful set up. The fix is an azimuth adjustable headshell from Jelco, which is on the way.

But, that’s how I found out that 100-year old Jelco is closing up shop permanently, largely due to COVID-19. :(

The parent company (Ichikawa Jewel) isn't closing, just getting out of the tonearm business.

Or at least at the retail level. It wouldn't surprise me if the OEM work for Ortofon continues.
 
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watchnerd

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Frank Dernie

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Regarding my OP, I ended up getting a Hana SL at a great price instead of the Hana EL. But, as fate would have it, I now don’t have my turntable. My VPI got sent back to the factory to repair a gap that developed between the metal top plate and the Delrin base of the plinth. Still waiting to enjoy my first MC cartridge. :facepalm:
Depending on how they are attached a gap between ally and delrin may come and go with temperature due to differential thermal expansion, and be exaggerated if the sun ever directly falls on the TT.
You may have to ignore it.
 
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Depending on how they are attached a gap between ally and delrin may come and go with temperature due to differential thermal expansion, and be exaggerated if the sun ever directly falls on the TT.
You may have to ignore it.

You may be right. The top plate is literally glued to the Delrin base. Although the the top plate is clamped on the left side by motor housing screws, on the tonearm side there are no clamping screws, just adhesive. The tech said the fix was simple, so we will see how it comes back. I was concerned that the lifted plate might induce vibrations.

I have a lot of affection for this little turntable, so I hope they can get it right.
 
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He further went to say that he had a Hana EL in his home system for many years and enjoyed it. It was using a PHONO LOCO which presents a load of 0 ohms, and that worked well also.

Still waiting for my Traveler to come home so I can mount up the Hana cartridge. Along the way, I decided to pay more attention to the Sutherland Phono Loco and the Little Loco current mode / transimpedance preamps. Lots of good subjective reviews; Steve Gutenberg was particularly enthusiastic.

Anyone measured one of these to validate why it might be better?

 

watchnerd

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Anyone measured one of these to validate why it might be better?

Better than.....what?

Stereophile measured one:

https://www.stereophile.com/content...g-little-loco-phono-preamplifier-measurements

The S/N isn't really better than the Puffin, which sells for a lot less.

This comment from the review doesn't sound so appealing to me:

"There's nothing a user can adjust to optimize the circuit for a certain cartridge—no adjustment of load resistance, in other words. You're almost entirely limited to moving-coil cartridges, and apparently, even among moving-coils, some combinations don't work at all. Got a cartridge you want to use? Plug it in, hold your breath, and see what happens."
 
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OP
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Better than.....what?

Thanks - I’ll revisit the Stereophile article.

I think the thing that intrigued me was that Ron Sutherland said he was using the Phono Loco “for many years” versus a more conventional preamp like the PhonoBlock. But, then again, Ron likely has many systems which he uses regularly!
 
OP
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BTW, when would you use a 10K load?

Figured out the answer to my own question by reading up elsewhere; too sheepish to go back to Ron Sutherland with another MC newbie question. The 10K ohm setting is probably for use with 1:10 step-up transformers (SUT). Since the resistive load is transformed by the square of the turns ratio, a 10K phono pre setting looks like a 100 ohm load to the cartridge. 100 ohms is a common loading for MC cartridges.

Sutherland has dropped this setting in later models (like the KC Vibe and 20/20), likely because his units are rarely used with a SUT. The pre has enough low-noise gain to not need a SUT to get a high-quality line level output, in most cases. For those that want a SUT, he also makes a unit with the SUT built-in, the MCX.
 
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I just bought my first DL-103 for $229. Going to swap between it and my Nagaoka MP-150 for comparison. I also have a an AT-VMN95C because I wanted an affordable reference to compare to. I work part time at a place that's an AT dealer and have listened to a few of their carts, but only a couple in my own system. The 95C sounds a bit bright to me but so do all of the AT carts I've heard. @anmpr1 what MM AT cart would you recommend? Are there any somewhat modern ones you know of that aren't that bright?

@TimW - how do you like the DL-103 in comparison to the Nagaoka MP-150? I've read great things about both over the years and I'm wondering which is a better fit for you.
 
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Let us know how you like your Hana.
Well, I got my Traveler back from VPI today and the Hana SL went on it tonight.

An aside on VPI - they found they could not repair the plinth and they offered to replace it with a NOS plinth for no additional charge over the original repair quote. I was quite pleased with their customer service and continue to recommend them as one of my small company all-stars!

Back to the Hana. In short, I like it! I loaded it at 1000 ohms with 60 dB gain. The cartridge was easier to align than I expected using the Traveler protractor. It had been a long time since I changed cartridges on this TT.

The first thing that struck me was how quiet the cartridge was. With the Ortofon 2M Blue, I could always hear when I dropped into the lead-in groove. With the SL, it was barely perceptible. I thought I had reconnected something wrong for a few seconds until the music started.

The second thing that struck me was that the highs were a lot more present. At first this seemed “tizzy”, but it calmed down a bit with more playing time. I could hear more high frequency detail and clarity across the board. So, the HF and resolution benefits of a MC and Shibata stylus may just prove out after all.

One odd thing I noticed was that the Shibata could find groove dirt the elliptical Ortofon could not. I had played one album side twice using the Ortofon (a record which I had previously vacuum cleaned) and the Shibata still had a light residue of dirt on the stylus after playing. I will have to revisit my record cleaning protocols!

I could go on subjectively, but this is an objective site. I’m looking forward to more hours with the Hana SL and I do see the additional value of it above the Ortofon 2M Blue, which I still use on my second turntable. I’m not convinced yet that it’s worth 3 times the price of the 2M Blue, but I got a deal that was much less than that, so I’m tickled so far. I could easily see that Hana staying in place until it was time for a retip.
 
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Now that I have a first Shibata stylus, I’m trying to pay more attention to stylus wear (retips can be expensive).

I found this well-researched and informative article yesterday and thought to share it here. As a consequence, I’m going to take the recommended 500 hour playing limit seriously, even though my amortized “cost per play” goes way up!

https://thevinylpress.com/the-finish-line-for-your-phonograph-stylus/
 

Tom C

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1 hr per day = 365hrs per year. Some days I play two hours or more. So, new stylus and cartridge every 18 months or so? Seems pretty frequent. Especially for expensive MC.
 
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