Fiio E10K vs Topping NX4 DSD could not hear any difference

[AudioSceptic]

When those 'any' small differences reach audible levels and are not masked by other music content then any speaker should just reproduce that + the distortions of the transducer.
If they happen to have similar distortion types then the distortion products would just be a little bit higher. If those already exceed audibility levels it should be worse (or more pleasant depending on the type of distortion (linear or non-linear).

When the extra distortion products do not reach audible levels then they do not contribute nor are they heard.

Thanks. That makes sense, and it is something rarely explained as you have.

 

[FranzKappa]

What measurements of the E10k explain it sounding 'compressed' ?
Are we talking about the same 'compressed' ?

I meant compressed dynamic range and minor separation, thus resulting a less emotional flat blurred sound which in my opinion fits with a smaller SINAD or less linearity (from the comparison tests here the E10K looks like 15 db less).

 

[AudioSceptic]

I think this is covered in detail here: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...-thresholds-of-amp-and-dac-measurements.5734/

Summary from bottom of 1st post...

Recap of thresholds

Lenient
Dynamic range, linearity: 96 dB
THD, IMD: -66 dBFS / 0.05%
Noise: -85 dBFS / 0.005%
SINAD: 85 dB
Crosstalk: -60 dBFS
Jitter: -110 dBFS, -100 dBFS around the main tone
Frequency response: ±0.5 dB
Channel balance: 1 dB
Output impedance: 2 ohms

Strict
Dynamic range, linearity, SINAD: 120 dB
THD, IMD, noise, crosstalk, jitter: -120 dBFS / 0.0001%
Frequency response, channel balance: ±0.1 dB
Output impedance: 0.16 ohms

Thanks. Some reading there for me.

 

[AudioSceptic]

the point is that speakers are linear systems which suffer of harmonic distortion at the end of the chain, source and amps are affected by non linearity which generate intermodulation which increases like a snowball passing through several stages of the chain and can be better or differently heard.

In my case I found the E10K beeing very flat and compressed which can be explained by its measurements.

The first para makes sense, but I'm not so sure about the second.

 

[BDWoody]

The first para makes sense, but I'm not so sure about the second.

Understanding those hearing thresholds helps a lot, doesn't it?

Shoutmeter is a good one...

 

[FranzKappa]

Understanding those heading thresholds helps a lot, doesn't it?

Shoutmeter is a good one...

Yes in a nutshell the E10K (if I am not wrong) plays in the area of 90db SINAD and my source is around 107db, the difference is relevant for a trained hear, my mother would not notice the difference up to 80db, musician friends feel intermodulation on the skin and distinguish between 107 and 110

 

[AudioSceptic]

Yes in a nutshell the E10K (if I am not wrong) plays in the area of 90db SINAD and my source is around 107db, the difference is relevant for a trained hear, my mother would not notice the difference up to 80db, musician friends feel intermodulation on the skin and distinguish between 107 and 110

My impression is that musicians in general don't care about SQ, except for speed variations, which they are very sensitive to (perfect pitch and all that).

 

[solderdude]

musician friends feel intermodulation on the skin and distinguish between 107 and 110

107 and 110 what (km/h, kg, Hz, dB referenced to what ?), under what conditions and how ?

 

[BDWoody]

Yes in a nutshell the E10K (if I am not wrong) plays in the area of 90db SINAD and my source is around 107db, the difference is relevant for a trained hear, my mother would not notice the difference up to 80db, musician friends feel intermodulation on the skin and distinguish between 107 and 110

Hmmm...so, based on this:

They could detect the difference in sounds from around 150 to 200 miles away?

I'd like to hear more about how they demonstrated this prowess?

 

[FranzKappa]

107 and 110 what (km/h, kg, Hz, dB referenced to what ?), under what conditions and how ?

it was written SINAD and it is roughly speaking.

 

[solderdude]

The problem I have with SINAD is that it says something about noise and THD products. It is a nice number.
However, I have seen plots of multitones (just 7 of them) with spikes = reduced noise floor that is much much worse than the SINAD number.
So while SINAD is an indication it doesn't say how it copes with music.

I doubt a SINAD of 110 can be discriminated from one with say 90dB.

Play music at full volume and then suddenly attenuate the music with 90dB.
Peaks will be 90dB lower in that case and you would be hearing nothing any more after being subjected to high SPL. At least not for a short while.

 

[oalmali]

Yes in a nutshell the E10K (if I am not wrong) plays in the area of 90db SINAD and my source is around 107db, the difference is relevant for a trained hear, my mother would not notice the difference up to 80db, musician friends feel intermodulation on the skin and distinguish between 107 and 110

By the way I forgot to stress that thanks to Atom we were able to switch between dac's with single click which convinced us even more that there was no difference at all, you might want to repeat it in a similar fashion since you might be already biased towards to device which should output better measurements.

Speaking of measurements where did you see E10K's SINAD measurements are playing around 90db? I only saw Amir's measurements which did not include SINAD?

 

[Sgt. Ear Ache]

the e10k sounds fine to me as both a dac and an amp. Actually drives my HE-400i's very nicely. No noted "compression" at all...

 

[Frank Dernie]

the point is that speakers are linear systems which suffer of harmonic distortion at the end of the chain, source and amps are affected by non linearity which generate intermodulation which increases like a snowball passing through several stages of the chain and can be better or differently heard.

In my case I found the E10K beeing very flat and compressed which can be explained by its measurements.

Speakers are probably the least linear item in a digital listening system.
A background noise of -60dB is certainly audible between tracks but, whilst the music is playing, IME, not audible.
It is rare on my recordings of live music to be for the lowest level sound to be lower than 40dB below the peaks.
Unless you are particularly irritated by hiss between tracks I would be shocked if you would notice noise and distortion levels lower than -70dB so, to all intents and purposes all DACs are good enough, compared to hearing, speakers and headphones IMHO.
So I don't think what you quote will be explained by the difference in measurements - check out that shoutometer data, do you really think you could hear somebody shouting to you 1km away (-60dB)?

 

[FranzKappa]

I think we are comparing apple and oranges, SPL dB and floor noise/tone peaks/dynamic range at the source which affect the fidelity of the signal by adding distortion that increases passing through next stages.

Passive systems are linear as they cannot create intermodulation distortion but only harmonic (unless they clip).

We are at the source and to reproduce correctly a CD at end of the chain with 96 dB you need more free dynamic range, i.e. keep all your noise sources well below the mark of 90 db overall.

Making short:
- I said class of 90 dB sinad as I have seen peaks up -80 db in the comparison graphs, this is roughly speaking, the real measure I assume will be below, the K3 is at 90 Sinad and sold as better quality wrt the E10K

- I have compared the E10K against a good well known reference system (even if the E09K is limited) and the result was poor as expected.

As well it cannot be expected that a 50$ DAC plays like a 200$ Dac and I think up to 400$ the comparison is still easy.

 

[BDWoody]

- I have compared the E10K against a good well known reference system (even if the E09K is limited) and the result was poor as expected.

As well it cannot be expected that a 50$ DAC plays like a 200$ Dac and I think up to 400$ the comparison is still easy.

As Expected... Of course it did as expected.

Why can't it be expected that a $50 DAC 'plays' like a $200,000 DAC.

$50 is enough to buy complete audible transparency. What can be better than that?

You seem to clearly correlate $$$ directly to sound quality. That's a shame.

 

[solderdude]

The line-out voltage of the E10K is around 1.5V.
Most of the better DAC's have output voltages >2V.
On a direct comparison (not level matched) the FiiO will always loose and sound 'dull' in comparison.

 

[FranzKappa]

Speakers are probably the least linear item in a digital listening system.
A background noise of -60dB is certainly audible between tracks but, whilst the music is playing, IME, not audible.
?

Noise at -60dB is affecting the signal making you listening a CD like an old FM radio.

 

[FranzKappa]

The line-out voltage of the E10K is around 1.5V.
Most of the better DAC's have output voltages >2V.
On a direct comparison (not level matched) the FiiO will always loose and sound 'dull' in comparison.

This could be a reason but the E09K has plenty of power and it was not even necessary to switch to high gain, the level was roughly matched

 

[FranzKappa]

As Expected... Of course it did as expected.

Why can't it be expected that a $50 DAC 'plays' like a $200,000 DAC.

$50 is enough to buy complete audible transparency. What can be better than that?

You seem to clearly correlate $$$ directly to sound quality. That's a shame.

On the other hand if what you say is true I have no chance to have a DAC which compare with the DACs of my old Sony, so why our beloved Admin is testing all these devices and sorting them in 4 colour classes?