Fiio E10K vs Topping NX4 DSD could not hear any difference

[oalmali]

TL;DR

I have done a simple experiment with my colleague to see if there is any audible difference between Fiio E10K and Topping NX4 when they are used as DAC only and there was no such difference. Most of the people here are not surprised and believes that the result is normal since Fiio E10K is able to deliver sound as transparent as other high end DAC's.


Hello everyone,

Today we made an interesting experiment, we have connected Fiio E10K and Topping NX4 line outs to the JDS Labs Atom so that we could compare those dacs instantly. We have used Beyerdynamic Amiron Home's, Tidal to feed both dacs one was getting digital signal from a Macbook Pro and the other one was getting from Samsung Galaxy S8 (but that should not matter I guess). After matching the volumes, guess what: we were not able to hear any difference First of all is this normal? Did we do something wrong?

We appreciate the work done mostly by Amir with all the measurements however we could not able to see Sinad measurements for E10K that's why we could not compare the actual measurements of both devices. If we assume E10K performs as good as K3, then NX4 pulls by 12 point according to Sinad chart?

So the actual question is does it mean both devices are decent enough so that the measurement differences are not audible at this point? We wonder because we were both considering to get Topping D50S mostly for it's better sound quality.

Let me know if you need any other inputs on that.

 

[AudioSceptic]

It looks like you have found that, beyond a certain point, DACs are transparent and it's pointless to spend more. Should we be surprised?

 

[oalmali]

hmm.. so we at least were surprised. So where to draw the line then? And even though that it is appreciated that means the only useful output from the measurements would be to find out if they don't suck? For what cases do you then really need to know the differences on such level.

And sorry if those questions sound kind of stupid... but we are in the "newbie"-section.. aren't we?

Thanks and regards

 

[BDWoody]

Hello everyone,

Today we made an interesting experiment, we have connected Fiio E10K and Topping NX4 line outs to the JDS Labs Atom so that we could compare those dacs instantly. We have used Tidal to feed both dacs one was getting digital signal from a Macbook Pro and the other one was getting from Samsung Galaxy S8 (but that should not matter I guess). After matching the volumes, guess what: we were not able to hear any difference First of all is this normal? Did we do something wrong?

We appreciate the work done mostly by Amir with all the measurements however we could not able to see Sinad measurements for E10K that's why we could not compare the actual measurements of both devices. If we assume E10K performs as good as K3, then NX4 pulls by 12 point according to Sinad chart?

So the actual question is does it mean both devices are decent enough so that the measurement differences are not audible at this point? We wonder because we were both considering to get Topping D50S mostly for it's better sound quality.

Let me know if you need any other inputs on that.

You have actually done what so many refuse to do.

Congratulations, you can now get off the crazy train to nowhere. You have taught yourself that transparency is transparency, and now on to the next upgrade that may actually matter... Speakers and room correction in my case...

By the way, same story with crazy claims made for cables (speaker, DAC, rca, whatever), power conditioners, quantum isolators, and all the rest.

Competently designed and constructed electronic gear, chosen by specs, is all you need for that stuff...

Welcome!

 

[BDWoody]

hmm.. so we at least were surprised. So where to draw the line then? And even tho that it is appreciated but what is the point of all the measurements then? For what cases do you then really need to know the differences on such level.

And sorry if those questions sound kind of stupid... but we are in the "newbie"-section.. aren't we?

Thanks and regards

The reviews are more to verify competence, and to go over other features, build quality, types of inputs, outputs, headphone amp capability, etc...general functionality rather than what sounds better, because...well...unless they are somehow broken by design or manufacturing error...they should all sound the same to any human.

 

[M00ndancer]

I got my DAC/AMP based on features and price, not the expectation of different sound.
And welcome to ASR!

 

[AudioSceptic]

hmm.. so we at least were surprised. So where to draw the line then? And even though that it is appreciated that means the only useful output from the measurements would be to find out if they don't suck? For what cases do you then really need to know the differences on such level.

And sorry if those questions sound kind of stupid... but we are in the "newbie"-section.. aren't we?

Thanks and regards

I would love to know this too. I know there's stuff at places like xiph.org about audibility, but it would be so useful to have a simple checklist of "as good as anyone needs" signal/noise, distortion, frequency response, and time-related errors. These would apply to anything, analogue or digital. Having said that, I'm still puzzled how speakers with orders of magnitude more distortion than anything else allow us to hear *any* small differences further back in the chain.

 

[THW]

I got my DAC/AMP based on features and price, not the expectation of different sound.
And welcome to ASR!

for me, good measurements and therefore sound is considered a prerequisite, it is expected.

main value propositions would thus be feature set, ergonomics and form factor, hence my decision to buy DX3 Pro. fantastic remote control layout, Bluetooth, excellent headamp, small all in one unit...

 

[FranzKappa]

Hello, this would be my first contribution to this interesting forum!

I am quite sckepitc of this experiment after having sent back an E10K very recently as very disappointing. My comparison bench: audiophile sony dvd (15.5 bit linearity ~ 106 db according to tests of the time) feeding an E09K through line out connected to AKG 550.

Tired to pull and sort CDs i wanted a cheap DAC able to play streamed material of good quality and I have compared same tracks with:
1) Qobuz + E10K + AKG 550 : No way, lower quality
2) Qobuz + E10K - line out > E09K > AKG: results barely acceptable but definitively not at the same level.

 

[oalmali]

Hello, this would be my first contribution to this interesting forum!

I am quite sckepitc of this experiment after having sent back an E10K very recently as very disappointing. My comparison bench: audiophile sony dvd (15.5 bit linearity ~ 106 db according to tests of the time) feeding an E09K through line out connected to AKG 550.

Tired to pull and sort CDs i wanted a cheap DAC able to play streamed material of good quality and I have compared same tracks with:
1) Qobuz + E10K + AKG 550 : No way, lower quality
2) Qobuz + E10K - line out > E09K > AKG: results barely acceptable but definitively not at the same level.

Hello there,

It's completely natural that someone else could get different results than us since we probably have different hearing capabilities. Just to clarify, in our experiment we definitely detected audible difference when e10k was used also as an amplifier. However the difference was eliminated when we have used e10k only as dac meaning e10k + jds labs atom vs nx4 + jds labs atom sounded identical to us with Amiron Home's.

I am considering to get Koss ESP/95X and my colleague will get his D50s anyways, we might repeat the experiment after those.

 

[FranzKappa]

It depends also from the kind of music tracks you have used for the comparison, if electronic simple stuff you might not hear the difference because there isnt any beeing the source poor.
I have used alicia keys unplugged live cds with piano, voice and high dynamics.

 

[oalmali]

It depends also from the kind of music tracks you have used for the comparison, if electronic simple stuff you might not hear the difference because there isnt any beeing the source poor.
I have used alicia keys unplugged live cds with piano, voice and high dynamics.

Some of the songs we have listened that I can remember from Tidal with 16/44.1:

Pink Floyd - Hey You
k.d lang - Constant Craving
Mountains - Hans Zimmer
Numb - Linkin Park
Down - Marian Hill

 

[solderdude]

I'm still puzzled how speakers with orders of magnitude more distortion than anything else allow us to hear *any* small differences further back in the chain.

When those 'any' small differences reach audible levels and are not masked by other music content then any speaker should just reproduce that + the distortions of the transducer.
If they happen to have similar distortion types then the distortion products would just be a little bit higher. If those already exceed audibility levels it should be worse (or more pleasant depending on the type of distortion (linear or non-linear).

When the extra distortion products do not reach audible levels then they do not contribute nor are they heard.

 

[Berwhale]

I would love to know this too. I know there's stuff at places like xiph.org about audibility, but it would be so useful to have a simple checklist of "as good as anyone needs" signal/noise, distortion, frequency response, and time-related errors.

I think this is covered in detail here: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...-thresholds-of-amp-and-dac-measurements.5734/

Summary from bottom of 1st post...

Recap of thresholds

Lenient
Dynamic range, linearity: 96 dB
THD, IMD: -66 dBFS / 0.05%
Noise: -85 dBFS / 0.005%
SINAD: 85 dB
Crosstalk: -60 dBFS
Jitter: -110 dBFS, -100 dBFS around the main tone
Frequency response: ±0.5 dB
Channel balance: 1 dB
Output impedance: 2 ohms

Strict
Dynamic range, linearity, SINAD: 120 dB
THD, IMD, noise, crosstalk, jitter: -120 dBFS / 0.0001%
Frequency response, channel balance: ±0.1 dB
Output impedance: 0.16 ohms

 

[Berwhale]

Hello everyone,

Today we made an interesting experiment, we have connected Fiio E10K and Topping NX4 line outs to the JDS Labs Atom so that we could compare those dacs instantly. We have used Beyerdynamic Amiron Home's, Tidal to feed both dacs one was getting digital signal from a Macbook Pro and the other one was getting from Samsung Galaxy S8 (but that should not matter I guess). After matching the volumes, guess what: we were not able to hear any difference First of all is this normal? Did we do something wrong?

I currently have a Fiio K3 (successor to E10K) connected to a JDS Atom and I have a Topping D50s arriving in a few days. I'm looking forward to duplicating your results.

 

[FranzKappa]

I'm still puzzled how speakers with orders of magnitude more distortion than anything else allow us to hear *any* small differences further back in the chain.

the point is that speakers are linear systems which suffer of harmonic distortion at the end of the chain, source and amps are affected by non linearity which generate intermodulation which increases like a snowball passing through several stages of the chain and can be better or differently heard.

In my case I found the E10K beeing very flat and compressed which can be explained by its measurements.

 

[FranzKappa]

I currently have a Fiio K3 (successor to E10K) connected to a JDS Atom and I have a Topping D50s arriving in a few days. I'm looking forward to duplicating your results.

the K3 should be of better quality, at least according to the seller of my E10K.

In my opinion and in my case, in terms of measurements, the E10K does not reach the linearity or SINAD of my DVD, possibly the K3 is closer but I think for my case I should get a Topping D30 at least.

 

[solderdude]

What measurements of the E10k explain it sounding 'compressed' ?
Are we talking about the same 'compressed' ?

 

[BDWoody]

In my case I found the E10K beeing very flat and compressed which can be explained by its measurements.

How so?

 

[Berwhale]

the K3 should be of better quality, at least according to the seller of my E10K.

In my opinion and in my case, in terms of measurements, the E10K does not reach the linearity or SINAD of my DVD, possibly the K3 is closer but I think for my case I should get a Topping D30 at least.

I'm not expecting to hear any difference between the K3 and the D50s - however, I will not be testing in anything like controlled conditions, so i'm sure I will hear a difference