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Evidence-based Speaker Designs

bobbooo

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Well, it seems Q Acoustics/Mr Fink does not care much about directivity, as the symmetrical midwoofer<>tweeter<>midwoofer it flawed by design (as a 2-way, vertical lobbing). But instead they focus on cabinet and drivers, like most "high end" brands. That speaker might sound not bad, but I would not call that evidence-based design.

It seems you haven't actually read their Concept 500 white paper I linked, in which they have a whole page on the importance of good dispersion characteristics, with measurements. Stereophile's measurements also show this evenly controlled dispersion, both horizontal and vertical. And it's a 2.5-way design, not 2-way. They're not exclusively a 'high-end' brand either, with products for every price range, starting at around $200 a pair for their 3010 and 3020 models, which have been given pretty much universal acclaim as great budget stand-mounters.

What needs to be understood is that companies like these are making mass-market products to home users, the majority of whom have no idea what things like directivity/dispersion are, and unfortunately these are not 'sexy' selling points to most people. It is the marketing departments of these companies who choose what to prioritize in their press releases / white papers / advertisements, and this is often not an accurate reflection of the priorities of the engineers who actually designed the speakers. It's quite obvious from measurements that Q Acoustics' speakers adhere to the fundamental evidence-based principles of good speaker design. Just because they also carefully consider less important aspects of the design (which are inflated by marketing), does not mean they're ignoring the more fundamental principles and should be overlooked as offering solid evidence-based speaker designs to the mass market.
 
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Frank Dernie

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It seems you haven't actually read their Concept 500 white paper I linked, in which they have a whole page on the importance of good dispersion characteristics, with measurements. Stereophile's measurements also show this evenly controlled dispersion, both horizontal and vertical. And it's a 2.5-way design, not 2-way. They're not exclusively a 'high-end' brand either, with products for every price range, starting at around $200 a pair for their 3010 and 3020 models, which have been given pretty much universal acclaim as great budget stand-mounters.

What needs to be understood is that companies like these are making mass-market products to home users, the majority of whom have no idea what things like directivity/dispersion are, and unfortunately these are not 'sexy' selling points to most people. It is the marketing departments of these companies who choose what to prioritize in their press releases / white papers / advertisements, and this is often not an accurate reflection of the priorities of the engineers who actually designed the speakers. It's quite obvious from measurements that Q Acoustics' speakers adhere to the fundamental evidence-based principles of good speaker design. Just because they also carefully consider less important aspects of the design (which are inflated by marketing), does not mean they're ignoring the more fundamental principles and should be overlooked as offering solid evidence-based speaker designs to the mass-market.
People are quite wrong to think the Harman approach is the only valid evidence based approach. It may be adopted as such by many on this forum but that does not make it absolute, though It is certainly part of the picture.
I have been interested by speakers (as an amateur, though a qualified noise and vibration engineer) since I built my first kit (KEFkit 3) in 1970.
I gently touched the mid range unit and was amazed how little vibration from the 5" unit was making so much sound. Then I felt the cabinet and thought "what the royal f*ck is that?" since, by touch, it didn't seem to be vibrating much less and it was a hugely bigger area than the cone.
Ever since then I have been intrigued by the design of speakers and how the cabinet radiation affected their accuracy.
I read what the BBC had done all those decades ago and have followed the various ideas (and it has to be said, fashions) on how speakers should be to an extent ever since.
Trial and error on prototypes with listening tests was all they could do but they showed WITHOUT ANY DOUBT that cabinet talk was a problem and researched methods to ameliorate it.
Nowadays much better methods are available and far more ideas can be modelled and tried.
Most of the "high-end" makers have sold the idea that just more rigid is better, which is expensive and may not even be true.
Several makers have addressed the problem in a much more thorough engineering way, including KEF and Q-Acoustics.

What ACTUALLY needs to be understood is that the work on directivity is important but not the only thing, and until somebody explains to me how the cabinet talk, WHICH IS KNOWN to be important too, is included in the sort of microphone spinorama type measurements, which so far I seems to be impossible, then it is only a part of the story, it may or may not be the most important evidence based parameter, we have not, here, yet got that data.
 

pozz

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somebody explains to me how the cabinet talk, WHICH IS KNOWN to be important too, is included in the sort of microphone spinorama type measurements.
It shows up as resonances consistent across the various curves as long as the measurement is high resolution and unsmoothed. Toole spends a lot of time on this issue in his book.
 

Frank Dernie

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It shows up as resonances consistent across the various curves as long as the measurement is high resolution and unsmoothed. Toole spends a lot of time on this issue in his book.
I am not only referring to resonant peaks but also wide band radiation. I want to know how much of the sound is coming from the driver and how much from parasitic radiation.
Yes, a peak shows there is a resonance somewhere but it doesn't tell what percentage of the sound is "correct", ie coming from a driver accurately following the electrical signal we are trying to reproduce and what percentage "spurious" ie excitation or parasitic vibration and resonaces of the box. I want to know if it is negligible.
I know engineers are measuring this in some speaker designs using modern methods not available years ago.
 

NTK

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I am going to quote one of Dr. Toole's posts in AVS Forum (bold are mine).
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/89-s...viewed-speakers-ever-made-5.html#post54570242
...
Resonances originate in transducers, in mechanical resonances in enclosures, and in acoustical resonances in enclosures. They all exhibit themselves in anechoic measurements and if they are energetic enough we hear them. This 29 year old paper explains it all in great detail:
Toole, F.E. and Olive, S.E. (1988). “The modification of timbre by resonances: perception and measurement”, J. Audio Eng. Soc., 36, pp. 122-142.

Putting an accelerometer on the wall of a cabinet is not a reliable indicator of the audibility of a resonance (sorry John Atkinson). For example, some panel resonances radiate sound effectively and others do not, but both exhibit vibration at a point on the panel. Harman and other advanced designers use scanning laser vibrometers to reveal patterns, polarity and amplitude of panel movement which guides the placement of structural reinforcements to reduce acoustical radiation from the resonance. When it is below the audible threshold in the anechoic frequency responses all is well (see the paper, or my books). It is not necessary to have foot thick concrete enclosures to eliminate audible resonances, good engineering can do it in rectangular wooden boxes.

Box shape is a factor, but a small one. Internal resonances are easily damped with fluff. Curved surfaces can be beneficial, or not, depending on how they fit into the total structure. Mostly it is a visual aesthetic issue, part of the industrial design, and having something to say in the literature, whether it affects the sound or not.
 
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Ilkless

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I am not only referring to resonant peaks but also wide band radiation. I want to know how much of the sound is coming from the driver and how much from parasitic radiation.
Yes, a peak shows there is a resonance somewhere but it doesn't tell what percentage of the sound is "correct", ie coming from a driver accurately following the electrical signal we are trying to reproduce and what percentage "spurious" ie excitation or parasitic vibration and resonaces of the box. I want to know if it is negligible.
I know engineers are measuring this in some speaker designs using modern methods not available years ago.

http://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=5619

This was an early paper on the subject. Fascinating stuff. Would be nice to see those graphs of the cabinet contribution to the radiated soundfield and whether it is audible.
 

tuga

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I am going to quote one of Dr. Toole's posts in AVS Forum (bold are mine).
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/89-s...viewed-speakers-ever-made-5.html#post54570242

From what I gather the sample of listeners is quite small in all tests, perhaps too small to be of any significant value.
It also seems to point at the importance of training:

"Three of the listeners yielded thresholds that were about 10 db lower than the fourth listener. The fact that this listener had the least prior experience may have been a factor"
 

NTK

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One of the newer tools available is the acoustical particle velocity probe (by Microflown). Below is a link to a paper on speaker cabinet characterization.
https://www.microflown.com/resource...net-characterization-using-particle-velocity/

Here are 3 figures from the paper showing the capabilities of their "scan-and-paint" technique.
c1.JPG

c2.JPG

c3.JPG
 
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Ilkless

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One of the newer tools available is the acoustical particle velocity probe (by Microflown). Below is a link to a paper on speaker cabinet characterization.
https://www.microflown.com/resource...net-characterization-using-particle-velocity/

Here are 3 figures from the paper showing the capabilities of their "scan-and-paint" technique.

This is utterly amazing. Now for a way to correlate effects of these to the net acoustic radiation, and how the total radiation is distorted as a result, and whether it is audible.
 

q3cpma

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This is utterly amazing. Now for a way to correlate effects of these to the net acoustic radiation, and how the total radiation is distorted as a result, and whether it is audible.
By the way, do you intend to update the list in the OP? For one, I'm surprised to see so much manufacturers giving no measurements of their products in it.
 
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Ilkless

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By the way, do you intend to update the list in the OP? For one, I'm surprised to see so much manufacturers giving no measurements of their products in it.

I have been occupied with another writing project on audio recently, which will hopefully be published on another website.

But I will get back to it when I find a manufacturer compelling enough to. And yes, I originally intended to limit it to brands that provide their own measurements, but then expanded it to brand making interesting and technically-sound design choices. FWIW, almost all of them have third-party measurements somewhere, even if not their own, that informed my decision. I just haven't curated all the third-party measurements. Perhaps the one closest to being struck off is HEDD. The Type 05 measurements I saw were quite disappointing considering how much they were offering as the sum of it's parts (DSP, really beefy midwoofer that measures well by itself, waveguide AMT). I'm holding on only for Type 07 measurements in detail. If those turn out bad, I think I will strike them off.
 

bobbooo

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I am going to quote one of Dr. Toole's posts in AVS Forum (bold are mine).

Harman and other advanced designers use scanning laser vibrometers to reveal patterns, polarity and amplitude of panel movement which guides the placement of structural reinforcements to reduce acoustical radiation from the resonance. When it is below the audible threshold in the anechoic frequency responses all is well (see the paper, or my books). It is not necessary to have foot thick concrete enclosures to eliminate audible resonances, good engineering can do it in rectangular wooden boxes.

And Sean Olive in another forum:
Using Finite Element Analysis you can model and simulate the resonances of the cabinet


One of the newer tools available is the acoustical particle velocity probe (by Microflown). Below is a link to a paper on speaker cabinet characterization.
https://www.microflown.com/resource...net-characterization-using-particle-velocity/

Here are 3 figures from the paper showing the capabilities of their "scan-and-paint" technique.
View attachment 51841
View attachment 51842
View attachment 51843

Similar techniques and simulations to these and what Toole and Olive describe are used by Q Acoustics and their lead engineer Karl-Heinz Fink, who use Finite Element Analysis, laser interferometry and Klippel's Scanning Vibrometer System to produce velocity maps of the interior of their speaker cabinets, in order to find the optimum points for bracing against resonances, without as Toole says, having "to have foot thick concrete enclosures to eliminate audible resonances, good engineering can do it in rectangular wooden boxes".

This is all described in their white paper I linked to previously. So if it's what Toole, Olive and Harman do, based on decades of leading scientific research, I don't see how these practices by Q Acoustics can be said not to be 'evidence-based'. Of course these reductions in resonances have the ultimate goal of making the frequency response smoother - they're not claiming anything more than that.
 

Rollomoto

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It seems you haven't actually read their Concept 500 white paper I linked, in which they have a whole page on the importance of good dispersion characteristics, with measurements.

I did, but there was not much about directivity, nor any measurements of the complete speaker showing off axis behavior of all drivers in the baffle.
As I said Q-Ascoustics and Mr Fink (I known him in person) do not care much about directivity, they invest in cabinets and drivers.

However if you execute evidence-based design consistently you will end up with digital active designs.
 

Rollomoto

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What ACTUALLY needs to be understood is that the work on directivity is important but not the only thing, and until somebody explains to me how the cabinet talk, WHICH IS KNOWN to be important too, is included in the sort of microphone spinorama type measurements, which so far I seems to be impossible, then it is only a part of the story, it may or may not be the most important evidence based parameter, we have not, here, yet got that data.

Directivity is by orders of magnitude more important than (internal) cabinet design.
 

2020

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People are quite wrong to think the Harman approach is the only valid evidence based approach. It may be adopted as such by many on this forum but that does not make it absolute, though It is certainly part of the picture.

Harman is known for doing listener based tests to drive how they design. And if their data says people like X, they give them X. If I knew everybody loved salt, I would overload all my stuff with salt. After the public loves it and starts becoming salt obsessed, it's only for a good reason. It just seems to be me like they are giving the public what the data shows they are most likely to like rather than having designers approach the problem with some pre-conceived preference first. But now that in itself is a preference.
 

bobbooo

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I did, but there was not much about directivity, nor any measurements of the complete speaker showing off axis behavior of all drivers in the baffle.
As I said Q-Ascoustics and Mr Fink (I known him in person) do not care much about directivity, they invest in cabinets and drivers.

However if you execute evidence-based design consistently you will end up with digital active designs.

From the white paper:
Finite Element Analysis was used to model the acoustic performance of the soft dome and surround for optimal axial dispersion. Too narrow a high frequency dispersion characteristic means the speaker will not drive the room well, making it sound flat and uninteresting unless the listener is sitting in the exact 'sweet spot'. The extra wide high frequency drive unit surround contributes to the dispersion of upper frequencies, adding extra energy off-axis. As can be seen by the axial response curve shown in Figure 9, the sound pressure level at 45 degrees off-axis is only 6dB lower at 15kHz, compared to the on-axis level.

Screenshot_20200227-233213_Adobe Acrobat.jpg


Quotes from Fink:
We developed Finite Element models to allow us to predict directivity, the frequency response of the driver, and how various factors affect output. That work led us to a new 28mm dome tweeter for the Q Acoustics Concept 500 (below), which radiates better off axis than the earlier 22mm design.

In addition to our POLYTEC Laser Scanner, we got the Klippel Laser Scanner recently. Why? Well, the Klippel device uses a Triangulation Laser and can output dimensions. It also couples the measurements to the surrounding air and allows to predict SPL including directivity – with a simple click only.

For marketing purposes, speaker brands need 'unique selling points' to differentiate them from all the other fundamental evidence-based companies, and Fink has marketed one of his USPs to be reducing cabinet resonances. But as I said before, just because a company/engineer/designer mention less important aspects of speaker design such as cabinet resonances (which they are only looking at to smoothen frequency response anyway), does not mean they are ignoring the well established fundamentals. The proof of that is in the actual measured data of their speakers. Soundstage have measured Q Acoustics' Concept 300 standmounter here and Stereophile have measured the Concept 500's dispersion characteristics:

319QC500fig6.jpg

(Horizontal)

319QC500fig7.jpg

(Vertical)

What exactly about these measurements would lead you to the conclusion that Q Acoustics and Fink don't care about dispersion performance and are not using evidence-based design?

As for the benefits of active speakers, Fink himself says this:
For ultimate performance would you have a passive speaker or active?
If I were to go for the perfect speakers and I had the time to develop them properly I would go active. I can use DSP to correct all the group delay distortions, something I can’t do in a passive design.

Digital signal processing – good for speakers or not?
Yes. In the automotive market we tune cars with DSP every day. We have a guy who works with different algorithms, so we listen and develop. There are no problems with DSP if done properly.

The fact is though there are other practical reasons some people might prefer passive speakers, such as using them with an AVR so they can double as home theater / multichannel music speakers, and not having the inconvenience of yet another set of cables to power the speakers, as well as more sockets to find to plug them in. Fink designs within the remit of the companies he works for, and Q Acoustics' primary target audience are home users who want convenient, uncluttered speakers that can be used for all their needs, while still sounding great.

This thread (and to a lesser extent this forum as a whole) seems heavily biased towards active speakers, yet if we take a look at the speakers measured so far on here, there are an equal number of passive and active models in the top six when used with a sub according to preference rating. And this preference rating ranks according to performance that is firmly based in scientific evidence. In fact, in a well-known blind study, it was the passive Revel Salon2 (which Floyd Toole uses as his personal speakers of choice at home by the way) that were much preferred over the active JBL M2, despite both measuring very well (possibly in slightly different ways though). So it's perfectly possible for passive speakers to be well-performing and designed based on evidence and science - a speaker should never be ruled out just because it's a passive design.
 
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Rollomoto

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@bobbooo
As I said the whitepaper you are fan of does not show any useful directivity measurements, since it only shows the tweeter up to 60° in horizontal dimension. Proper directivity plots show vertical und horizontal planes up to to 360°, like Neuman, Genelec and other professionals do.

Another example:
Sonogramm_horizontal.png

(taken from: https://ggntkt.de/en/model-m1/technische-daten/ )

The stereophile plots you are sharing again, do show that this Q-Acoustics is not constant directivity (CD), since it is to narrow into high frequency. To achieve CD you have to use a waveguide, especially in a 2-way. This is why Neuman, Genelec, JBL and other professionals use a complex shaped front baffles, based on the findings of Toole/Olive/Harman.

My impression:
Q-Acoustics is not true evidence-based design. It seems that marketing dictates the form factor and aesthetics and Mr. Fink had to make the best of it. That's a different approach from aiming for the best performance from the very beginning.

As for the digital/active discussion:
I see no contradiction to my statement – if you strive for max performance you have to go digital and active.
 

andreasmaaan

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When we say constant directivity is evidence-based, what evidence are we talking about?

When it comes to loudspeaker preferences, the Toole/Olive research produced evidence that listeners preferred non-constant CD. Indeed, the Olive preference rating system penalises CD designs, instead favouring designs with a downward-sloping off-axis response.

FWIW, I do think there is other, good evidence for CD as a goal. So I'm not arguing with you if that's your view. But I'm curious to hear what evidence others are basing their perspectives on?

(And sorry BTW if this was already addressed earlier in the thread - it's 30+ pages and I haven't read all of it ;))
 

thewas

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