Environmental impact of our hobby

[Destination: Moon]

Isn't there a pizzeria you boys are supposed to be raiding¿

 

[Taketheflame]

I've always been under the impression that the true environmental impacts of things we use is complicated. In audio, I'm guessing most of the impacts come from manufacturing, and the disposal of old equipment and media.

I mostly tend to be into the old school side of the audio hobby, so it's largely secondhand/vintage equipment for me (except for the obvious things like DACs), as well as (mostly) used physical media.

I've mostly been doing it that way simply because I find vintage gear to be really cool (my own subjective opinion of course), and secondhand media is also usually cheaper (other than maybe some OOP stuff with high demand). But if there's also a "green" aspect to it - from keeping old stuff out of a landfill while getting personal enjoyment out of it, that's a win-win in my book.

But I also do wonder if older units that might consume more power negate any potential reduction of environmental impact? In any case, I leave anything not in use powered off.

 

[Marmus]

So, take a look at the time history of satellite images of earth. What you see is simply going OUT into space. 80% of most lamps. Or lighting the ground. You can't save it. International Dark Sky Assoc.

 

[Marmus]

Get active.

 

[HiFidFan]

Get active.

As in monitors? I'm seriously considering it. . .

 

[RayDunzl]

Environment:

Looks like "packaging" is a bigger offender than the actual products, to me.

Every month or so I can fill a big so-called recycling barrel with "packaging", while never discarding an actual product.

 

[ZolaIII]

So, take a look at the time history of satellite images of earth. What you see is simply going OUT into space. 80% of most lamps. Or lighting the ground. You can't save it. International Dark Sky Assoc.

That's a example of floating garbage (satellites).

 

[Marmus]

We are trashing the near earth environment now that we have totaled the planet. If we would stop using up so much energy to light up the the sky we could probably survive another 1k years or so. Well, a few anyway. Where are those 400wpc tubes amps anyway? You can listen, warm your house, and light it all at the same time.

Until we see lights being shut off, kinda screwed.

 

[kevin52]

We are trashing the near earth environment now that we have totaled the planet. If we would stop using up so much energy to light up the the sky we could probably survive another 1k years or so. Well, a few anyway. Where are those 400wpc tubes amps anyway? You can listen, warm your house, and light it all at the same time.

Until we see lights being shut off, kinda screwed.

Why would you say that?

 

[TheBatsEar]

I believe there are several problems and each needs a solution:

• Packaging and transportation: Should be made with renewable energy and renewable materials, paper instead of plastic. If there is plastic, or anything energy intensive like aluminium used for packaging, there must be a penalty. There is no reason to pack a remote into another layer of plastic, when paper can do the job as well. Transportation to the consumer needs to get fixed as well.
• Energy consumption: Should be almost zero when not used or idle, sufficient regulations are in effect in Europe, and i think it made an impact worldwide.
• Production: This is the big one, there is no good reason to use a big, thick slab of aluminium, when glas, wood or something else can be used. Each raw material for a electrolytic capacitor or resistor, knob or motor must be produced with environmental impact in mind.
• Recycling: Another big one, the chain of recycling must be tight. A manufacturer must pay a price when his product is harder to recycle. He must get a positive incentive when it is easy to recycle. This has worked in Europe for fridges and kitchen appliances, it will work for everything.

In the end devices will get so pricey, only few of them will be sold. And that would be the best outcome for the environment and that is what needs to happen.

Alas, what is in motion, is to little, governments are afraid or too weak to do the needed steps. There is immense resistance at every turn, mainly because everyone thinks, his is but a tiny problem, why not fix someone elses problem first.

You can see it in this thread as well, it's called whataboutism: Yes, our hobby is one of pure consumerism and hurting the environment, there is no redeeming quality in it, but what about those cars? Shouldn't we fix those first?

My personal solution? I know the problem, know the solution, but can't change anything. If you step up and make yourself heard you get stamped as a ecofascist. That's not how i want to live my life.

Might as well say planet's fucked anyway, send me that new amp and speakers: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_impact_on_the_environment

 

[Jim Matthews]

You can see it in this thread as well, it's called whataboutism: Yes, our hobby is one of pure consumerism and hurting the environment, there is no redeeming quality in it, but what about those cars? Shouldn't we fix those first?

Heatpumps replacing gas/coal/oil fired boilers would make considerable sense on the "whatabout?" scale.

https://www.bbc.com/future/article/...-how-to-cut-the-carbon-emissions-from-heating


It's only a SWAG - but I would submit constant cellphone use consumes power several orders of magnitude greater than all the audio devices, combined. Turning your phone off a few hours each day might be the single biggest reduction in consumption the average Westerner could make, without anyone noticing.
(Says the man browsing the World wide web)

http://www.natureworldnews.com/articles/467/20130107/ict-sector-account-2-percent-global-carbon.htm

 

[TheBatsEar]

I would submit constant cellphone use consumes power several orders of magnitude greater than all the audio devices, combined. Turning your phone off a few hours each day might be the single biggest reduction in consumption the average Westerner could make, without anyone noticing.

I know you mean well, like all of us, but this is called "personal greening" and can't solve the problems of climate change, overconsumption and overpopulation. Anything you do as an individual has absolutely no chance of making a dent, i'm afraid the solutions must be large scale:

• There must be regulation that demands building of new houses with heat pumps, otherwise you are not allowed to build at all.
• There must be regulation that forces mobile devices to stay below a certain energy level when idle, otherwise you are not allowed to sell at all.
• The must be regulation that forces people using reuseable water containers, otherwise you have to pay a hefty penalty.

We all know the solutions. But it can't be done, evidently.

 

[Jim Matthews]

I know you mean well, like all of us, but this is called "personal greening" and can't solve the problems of climate change, overconsumption and overpopulation.

Perhaps if you dress in sackcloth and ashes you'll feel better...

We're the most fortunate generation, living in plenty during a period of extended peace. I don't know anyone who lost a young child to the host of diseases that claimed so many up until Dr. Salk showed a lighted path.

People are routinely walking away from physical accidents that once crippled, maimed or ended lives on the spot. For the first time in human history - we have lost more lives to diseases of excess, rather than starvation. On that point, I would agree that it's unfair and an embarrassing example of what a "birth lottery" looks like.

Rather than celebrate this, doomsayers are ready to write off the species.

There's always some codger muttering into their soup about how bad things are, today. They've always been wrong.

Each of us, using less, is precisely the route to reducing consumption.

Migrating to devices that don't burn fuel is exactly how CO2 reductions happen. Birth rates have already fallen below "replacement level" in Western countries where most of the power is consumed.

Food security and basic hygiene reverse multiple birth traditions (having lots of children as a hedge against premature deaths) in young Nations that are still growing beyond the replacement rate.

Rend your garments if you like, instesd I'll enjoy my local bounty and revel in the beautiful works of clever humans.




https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/birth-rate-by-country

https://www.c2es.org/document/decarbonizing-u-s-buildings/

 

[Frank Dernie]

We are trashing the near earth environment now that we have totaled the planet. If we would stop using up so much energy to light up the the sky we could probably survive another 1k years or so. Well, a few anyway. Where are those 400wpc tubes amps anyway? You can listen, warm your house, and light it all at the same time.

Until we see lights being shut off, kinda screwed.

My old boss wasn't and engineer either and he used to get wound up about people leaving lights on.
Even back then lights were low power but when I pointed out to him that lighting his office used about 120 watts (it would be nearer 20 nowadays) but heating it used about 3kW it did not compute in his head ( he liked a warm office ...)

Lighting is easy to see but it is of little consequence compared to heating (or air conditioning) and travel is bigger still.
The environmental impact of hifi is tiny compared to heating a house or running a car.
Having written that I consider any waste to be extremely stupid, not just wasteful

 

[RayDunzl]

Each of us, using less, is precisely the route to reducing consumption.

To reduce consumption, reduce consumers.

One less consumer has the same impact as 100 reducing their own consumption (my own made up statistic for argument's sake)

I see estimates for a plateau around 10 billion later in this century, but it seems that requires Western levels of consumption so the inhabitants feel comfortable not having ten children.

 

[TheBatsEar]

Perhaps if you dress in sackcloth and ashes you'll feel better...

That's at the same time the most hysteric and hilarious thing i have heard today. I'm not taking part in a discussion where instead of facts we exchange emotions.

 

[ta240]

I've been thinking for some time about the environmental impact of our hobby. Specifically thinking about the tubes and Class A and A/B amps that we use .....

Given the sound levels that many people seem to listen at; do I really have to give up my tube amp that draws 90 watts so people can crank up their class D and suck in hundreds of watts?
I would have to think some of these tube and class A amps that are derided as grossly underpowered are entertaining their owners at lower volume levels and lower power usage than some class D amps in the hands of those that feel a need for hundreds of watts of power.

And one of my tube amps was built in 1959, just imagine how many amplifiers have been made, shipped and thrown away in the 62 years it has been in service (granted it is on its 3rd set of tubes...). How many tube amps get thrown away when something goes wrong compared to modern amps, dacs and the related electronics?

What are the pollution levels and where is the energy coming from in the countries where all the new components come from. I think the massive amount of internet reviews and bargain priced equipment have spawned consumerism in the audio field at levels never seen before in any product category. There is also the energy used in transporting the goods or the packaging. The energy consumed and waste generated from the manufacture, packaging, transport and disposal of the old equipment has to be huge.

And don't even get me started on the waste that is my perfectly good cell phone needing to be replaced because they decided not to update the operating system on it anymore and the security issues that creates as well as not being able to us a lot of apps.

Sure, it is good to look at the energy used by everything electronic but the environmental impact beyond just what they draw from the outlet is huge.

 

[kevin52]

Black soot is pollution, CO2 is plant food and not pollution. Historically on the Earth CO2 levels have been greater than 1,000ppm currently tha planet needs more atmospheric CO2 not less. Plant growth is optimum at Co2 levels of ~1,000pm.

 

[LeRoy]

The number of times 'energy efficient' bulbs have died in my home is countless...

Physical waste is a huge issue and I only see it getting worse. There are lots of electronics just never sold which contain batteries and rare earth minerals.

 

[MakeMineVinyl]

Audio is such a tiny segment of hobbies, and the percentage of users which use tube gear is a tiny percentage of that tiny percentage.

The refrigerator in your house - do you realize how much energy that uses? Or the energy to heat the water you use to take a shower? Or the energy to heat your house? Or the environmental impact of manufacturing solar cells or batteries you use to generate 'green energy', or clothes, or toilet paper?

The only total cure for the planet is to eliminate mankind. Any volunteers on who goes first?

There are gaping problems to deal with concerning the environment - might I humbly suggest addressing some of the areas which might have real impact. Whether people use tube gear or not is not going to matter a fly's fart compared to 1 microsecond of coal burning at some power plant. But picketing a power plant or coordinating a rally against coal burning is hard and takes more dedication than posting environmental shaming on an audio focused forum, doesn't it.

Greta Thunberg is making good use of her time and energies. Perhaps follow her lead and not harp on audio hobbies. We are not the biggest problem.