End Game Speakers - The Quest Continues

[thewas]

When someone talks about "end game" ambitions, they are still chasing the rainbow. What I learned from going "end game" a while back is that it leaves you still wondering if there's something you can improve, or you question your choice 6 months later.

If I am honest, my end game chain looked great, but deep inside I was a bit underwhelmed by the marginal improvements - when gear is already very good, and when the music is great, hey, might as well stay put. My "end game" gear sounded great in a big listening room, but 15 years later, after divorce and with a smaller place, it just didn't work and was too big and overwhelming. I then went through a number of changes/upgrades for a few years, until I settled with what I have right now - and yes, LS50 with a great amp and a sub or two will truly work brilliantly, thank you very much. And I did own $12k bookshelf speakers to "upgrade" from LS50 I acquired in 2013... and after a few years, I went back to the LS50.

Well written, if the listening distance isn't large someone can reach a very high level with a moderate budget if that is used cleverly. Since I have my dedicated compact listening space, using a pair of LS50 Meta plus a pair of subwoofers and DSP, I have been visited by several audiophile friends of mine, where one used to have a pair of Neumann KH420 and now an also superb pair of Geithain K921 and he says with in my current equalised state he prefers the sound of my system to his as he doesn't have or use a DSP. As I also used like changing and testing loudspeakers in the past I must say the understanding that at my current level a significant improvement will be only possible with a large space and multichannel system frustrates me from time to time.

 

[srrxr71]

If 0.5mm cause an issue, we have a whole new set of discussions coming up. "Nano alignment" business opportunity anyone?

I see the wavefront as sacred. It’s true the day is out there. Waves are precious

 

[lewis]

Perhaps I’m cursed, but my situation is sort of the opposite. I am endlessly fascinated with listening to different loudspeakers to check out how they sound. But when it comes to loud speakers I would actually buy or more specifically would want to sit down and listen to in my home for long periods of time, and that list gets very short relative to the amount of speakers out there. I might’ve said that I’m too picky for my own good, except that even a very short list from the available speakers means I’ve been able to own many different speakers that I’ve enjoyed immensely. But most speakers I encounter don’t fully grab me enough to make me want on them.

Matt describes my view on speakers perfectly.
I would ideally have a small collection of the speakers I like and change them as the mood takes me.
So Matt please give me your list.

 

[srrxr71]

Matt describes my view on speakers perfectly.
I would ideally have a small collection of the speakers I like and change them as the mood takes me.
So Matt please give me your list.

Just use dsp. I mean come on. You want to be “purist”. Okay fine. But don’t complain here.

 

[MKR]

That is a pretty good way to sum it up, I think. Can you even find speakers that are 2x, 5x or 10x higher quality than D&D 8C? Seems doubtful even if you are willing to spend 10x more for a 2x improvement. But 10x bigger, 10x more expensive, and 10x louder... sure.

As far as sound quality, no, you really can’t do better than a speaker with the attributes of the 8C (DSP active, neutral FR, constant directivity, cardioid, full range). Beyond having these minimum boxes checked, indeed you are paying more for additional SPL, features (convenience features, EQ software, etc), cosmetics, etc. And just about all of the speakers with such characteristics as far as I know, the minimum price for entry is $10-15k ish. Hence the reason for my rough assessment on diminishing returns.

To sum up my journey, this is really what I have learned, via actual listening (and to MANY different speakers, as you all know) … It is a must for me to have a speaker with the above mentioned attributes, as a minimum, nothing else will suffice.

 

[MKR]

original posters wife is a gem if she doesnt care about looks. Some of these options id get flogged for

yah great point. I think in the case of these two options this might happen because the products arent even available yet . when I heard the dutch n dutch at the show I dont know why you would want louder or if you did what room would need it.


id bet most here are chasing vaporware for the sake of it to fill a void. most forums are addictive and keep people chasin the tail

Well yes, she is a gem. But, having a dedicated listening space means she doesn’t care what I put in there. Now, if in the living room, that is a different matter

No vapor ware chasing here, you haven’t been paying attention. What I seek is real, just hasn’t fully come into reality yet.

 

[MKR]

Many years ago I hosted a meeting of a half-dozen or so audiophiles, and when we played a CD one of them had brought, he said that the polarity sounded reversed, and asked me if my preamp inverted polarity. I told him I didn't think so, but he said he was pretty sure it did. So the next day I investigated and sure enough, my preamp DID invert polarity. Well his could have been a lucky guess, or maybe he actually already knew that my preamp inverted polarity, but my interest was piqued.

Fast-forward a few months and now I had a preamp with switchable polarity, and invited him over again. He brought several of his CD's. I tested to see if he could tell whether the polarity was switched to inverted or not using CDs he was familiar with, and he got it right every time. So SOME people CAN hear and recognize absolute polarity. I am not one of them. Anyway he is now one of my beta testers.

Thanks for this Duke. I will have to investigate this further. For those with the apparent polarity “golden ears” I wonder exactly what are the differences that they are hearing? Maybe it is very subtle and they know what to listen for?

 

[sigbergaudio]

It’s actually worse than you suggest. Very expensive loudspeakers are produced in such small quantities that the manufacturer cannot afford the R&D to get the engineering right nor can he afford the tooling for medium volume production. It just doesn’t make economic sense. So the very expensive loudspeaker may even underperform the well engineered medium volume product, but certainly doesn’t represent any worthwhile increase in performance for the vastly inflated sales price. The YouTube Audiophool pundits love expensive gear of course!

As a small manufacturer I reject the idea that small / small volume production makes it impossible to "get the engineering right".

There are certainly many expensive speakers that do a better job at being good looking furniture than presenting music in a convincing way, but that doesn't mean it can't be done. And I don't think the reason they get it wrong is low volume.

 

[flysouth]

yea I have. both aint available or fully baked

vaporware def

1. software or hardware that has been advertised but is not yet available to buy, either because it is only a concept or because it is still being written or designed.

 

[Pearljam5000]

I found the system for you

 

[MKR]

I found the system for you

Those are the Gobels, heard em at AXPONA last year, meh

 

[MattHooper]

Regarding End Game searches and never being happy...

As we discussed in the previous thread it's based on the individual. Some are more picky about satisfying a certain set of personal preferences than others. I have audiophile friends who can easily settle down with a much wider range of speakers than I can. If you know you are the "might second guess myself" type, or have a high level of confidence that you've got the best solution out of the available options, then obsessive quests like MKR here can make sense

I went obsessive in designing my listening/home theater room. Just insane on the level of details I wanted, which made the renovation take forever. But in the end it was worth it; 14 years later and there isn't a thing I'd change, it's just perfect for me (as much as I could manage given the existing restrictions). That level of putting obsessiveness up front on the process really paid off.

Given the differences available in speakers and the enormous variety of options, yeah there will always be something out there you missed. But even "I did my best all things considered" can be enough to quell second guessing. When I had to replace my larger speakers back in 2018 I went through one of my no-stones-upturned quests, listening to every speaker I could find within my budget. Generally it worked out for me. First, if I get the "what-ifs" I can remind myself I investigated most of the what-ifs. Second, I always appreciate things about other loudspeakers, and realize no speaker is perfect (for me), but every single time I hear other systems and come back to mine, it reminds me how I made the right decision and why, and taking quite a while to hone in on what I really responded to in the quest is how I got there.

 

[Duke]

Thanks for this Duke. I will have to investigate this further. For those with the apparent polarity “golden ears” I wonder exactly what are the differences that they are hearing? Maybe it is very subtle and they know what to listen for?

He tried to tell me what to listen for and I couldn't hear it. He's also a musician and used to mix for a recording studio, so his ears have more professional credentials than mine.

 

[HeadDoc12]

Lol. Do you think MKR and others with cash for audio are not travelling? Not spending money on experiences?

I think we just need to enjoy what we have, and not extrapolate anothers journey through our own eyes.
We are talking about picking speakers not how to prioritise spending.....

If anyone is looking for the ultimate cautionary tale regarding the pursuit of high quality playback, simply search the internet for Ken Fritz. He spent decades and well over a million dollars chasing his holy grail, only to fall ill and die before fully completing it. There is an interesting documentary made by one of his sons on YouTube, but articles written after his death indicate that his hobby took priority over his family, and it is not a pretty story at all. No one here approaches his obsessiveness, but I think of him when I ponder upgrading and remind myself that I used to dance around my room playing air guitar as a teenager, with a pretty lousy system providing the soundtrack. Maybe the enjoyment one gets from listening to music is preferable to the enjoyment of pursuing sonic perfection?

 

[srrxr71]

Sometimes a song comes on at the office or the store and it hits. It has its effect. But not like I have at home. It’s nice to just finish it and enjoy.

 

[MarkS]

I vaguely recall that SMWTMS reported establishing the audibility of absolute polarity with blind testing back in the 80s, but that (consistent with reports here) it was very subtle and not all testees could hear it.

Then there is the issue that polarity could have been reversed somewhere in the recording chain, so there is no way to be sure which polarity is correct, even if it is (barely) audible.

 

[Jaxjax]

If anyone is looking for the ultimate cautionary tale regarding the pursuit of high quality playback, simply search the internet for Ken Fritz. He spent decades and well over a million dollars chasing his holy grail, only to fall ill and die before fully completing it. There is an interesting documentary made by one of his sons on YouTube, but articles written after his death indicate that his hobby took priority over his family, and it is not a pretty story at all. No one here approaches his obsessiveness, but I think of him when I ponder upgrading and remind myself that I used to dance around my room playing air guitar as a teenager, with a pretty lousy system providing the soundtrack. Maybe the enjoyment one gets from listening to music is preferable to the enjoyment of pursuing sonic perfection?

I actually think of this often . I got my 1st system at a young age of 9-10 or so. Electric guitars too... I couldn't get enough of it, skipped school just to play & listen.. Then in my 20's I always had loud obnoxious systems that sounded great to me & happy as a clam. Now at 57 I realy can't say I' happier with what I got compared to then or the ride getting here, what ever that really is. Last couple summers while sleeping outside with a jbl charge 4 on camp table I felt it was better repoduction then what I have in the house. This wasn't a one time thing. So a $100. device equaled or exceded happiness I get with my closer to 20k system. I always remember the JBL tube now & take none of this to serious anymore or try not to lets say. I just love music & that is that. I can easily see how that happened to that fella. It has taking a negative tole on people around me at times with guitars & stereo gear & especially guitars....very very addictive those suckers are.
Joe

 

[Anton D]

If a hobby doesn't bring joy, we are not obliged to pursue it.

I hear you, Jaxjax, a simple set of battery powered speakers out in a beautiful natural setting can be transformative. I am yet to sit there and think, "If 'only' factor X' were better, I could enjoy the music more."

100% with you.

At home, there is always a slight bit of listening to system rather than only hearing the music...I wonder if much of the time listening at home on our assemblage of gear, part of us is always listening for a malfunction. Even when we think we are not, some small part of us is always in diagnostic mode. Maybe part of human nature!

Another plus for the portable stuff is getting to hear reasonable quality sound where we don't expect that!

Cheers, Jaxjax!

 

[srrxr71]

If a hobby doesn't bring joy, we are not obliged to pursue it.

I hear you, Jaxjax, a simple set of battery powered speakers out in a beautiful natural setting can be transformative. I am yet to sit there and think, "If 'only' factor X' were better, I could enjoy the music more."

100% with you.

At home, there is always a slight bit of listening to system rather than only hearing the music...I wonder if much of the time listening at home on our assemblage of gear, part of us is always listening for a malfunction. Even when we think we are not, some small part of us is always in diagnostic mode. Maybe part of human nature!

Another plus for the portable stuff is getting to hear reasonable quality sound where we don't expect that!

Cheers, Jaxjax!

I always had that problem when I had passives and separates. Really it was some of equipment addiction. Hyping it all up in your head and then trying hard to “get” the stereo image. Certainly looking for that “something wrong”. Sometimes it turned out to be on the track itself. But it got upsetting when you don’t know that and you think “I spent all this money on this stuff and it’s not perfect”.

All the investigating to figure out it was from the recording. Just takes you right out of the music.

The way I would put that is that I served the system rather than the system serving me.

For me at least finally I hit true end game. Someone else here described it as “it excites me the same as the first day I got it even a year into ownership” to paraphrase.

My system serves me period.

I may have (want) to calibrate it once in a while but that’s it. About 5 minutes every few weeks. But that’s all I need to do and it just serves me. Every time I put on music it just hits. Like wow I can’t believe i’m hearing this. Of course i’m careful to take days off but it still feels the same if I listen on 2 consecutive weekend nights.

 

[srrxr71]

Also getting to the point that you have no desire to spend anything more in this hobby is such a liberating feeling.