End-game enough?

[AudioKC]

Hi, music and movie lovers.

TL;DR

Now, my question is, is it an end-game system for music? Or we as humans always will want something new and "better" even when we reached 95-99% of the quality of sound reproduction?

• Speakers: KEF R11
• Subs: 2xMonolith THX 12 V2
• AMP: Buckeye NCx500 2ch
• DAC: Topping DM7
• Source: MAC, Roon, Apple Music Lossless
• Room Correction: Dirac Live
• Bass Management: Dirac Live Bass Control

I decide to move from a small bookshelf speaker sound to a large floor-standing speaker sound. There is nothing wrong with the bookshelf speaker sound reproduction, just wanted a bigger/louder/wider sound signature.

That said, I decided to almost do an "all in" action (at least for me), to make an end-game system for many many years ahead. The first step was the purchase of KEF R11 (non-meta) to replace my Revel M105 (which is incredible and loud enough). Kef R11 is considered and referred to as a great speaker, with quite linear directivity and frequency response, with incredible bass and sound power (given correct amplification).

To run such a big speaker I have to get some power Decided to go with Buckeye NCx500, it's capable of 380 watts into 8ohms, SINAD below CD noise floor, linear frequency response, huge dumping factor, great efficiency, etc. In simple words, great AMP.

I have already two Subs with a huge SPL output, Monolith 12 V2 THX. capable of flat output with distortion below 3% for 20-100hz.

Add to it Dirac Live for room correction and Dirac Live Bass control, runs on MAC + DAC Topping DM7 (8 channels DAC to run KEFs and two Subs).

To put into context, this system can be described as:

• producing quite a flat frequency response out of the box, and a good directivity index (meaning that with Dirac Live it can be corrected in the room)
• THD is incredibly low, 20-100 below 3% (Subs + KEFs), 100-20,000 below 0.3% (KEFs) at 90db SPL
• it's capable of 110db SPL loudness (in theory)
• DAC - AMP combo is cleaner than CD quality almost for all power levels and all frequencies below 5Khz

End-game enough?

p.s. Forget to mention, I have room treatment with a combination of DYI panels and bought panels. REW RT60 Sweep shows average 380ms decay for 200-10000hz, which is OKish but could be better (will be better after ceiling treatment)

 

[kemmler3D]

IMO R11 isn't flat enough in the midrange to the point that I would consider it truly endgame. However, I think given that the directivity is really great, you can do some EQ correction there and not end up worse than you started. (maybe?) So maybe there's no need to go beyond this.

Otherwise don't see big room for improvement within a sane budget here.

I think the only potential serious upgrade in this list, then, would be a next-gen room correction tool like Dirac ART, but AFAIK it's only available in a processor that currently costs $12K so maybe that can wait.

 

[AudioKC]

IMO R11 isn't flat enough in the midrange to the point that I would consider it truly endgame.

Thanks for response.

Quick question, have you seen measurements of R11 not in regular room? I mean klippel measurements?
I asses R11 by R3 and R7, basically midrange and twitter are similar, width of speaker is similar etc. R3 and R7 has good directivity and response, but I never found R11 Klippel measurements.

 

[kemmler3D]

Thanks for response.

Quick question, have you seen measurements of R11 not in regular room? I mean klippel measurements?
I asses R11 by R3 and R7, basically midrange and twitter are similar, width of speaker is similar etc. R3 and R7 has good directivity and response, but I never found R11 Klippel measurements.

I referenced this and IIRC one other one. https://www.hifinews.com/content/kef-r11-loudspeaker-lab-report - not Klippel but pseudoanechoic I guess. It has that dip in the midrange that I would prefer not to see. My personal (probably unattainable in anything I can afford) "endgame" would be "ruler flat" on-axis from 100hz to 10khz at least, ideally 20-20k.

 

[AudioKC]

Yep, I saw these. I guess it's some room mode/comb filter and or this problem (Thanks to Erin):

Overall Spin is great (for R3), and directivity is great (for R3). It's the same 1 to 1 mid-driver and Twitter.

 

[AudioKC]

I'm impressed by Erin's quality reviews and the details that he is putting out. Without that Information, I would judge KEF R11 differently.

 

[AudioKC]

Found KEF measurements for R11. Seems quite flat and repeats R3 measurements from Erin.

 

[kemmler3D]

Found KEF measurements for R11. Seems quite flat and repeats R3 measurements from Erin.

Interesting, the discrepancy is because of the flare ring, you think? That curve looks a lot more endgame-y to me.

 

[AudioKC]

Interesting, the discrepancy is because of the flare ring, you think? That curve looks a lot more endgame-y to me.

I would bet on the ring, but to be fair there is a small .5-1db deep around 1000hz

 

[AudioKC]

OK, some first impressions on R11 with my current AMP (Hypex NCore previous generation, 252MP).

1. Impressive Details
2. Forward sound, big central punch in drums
3. Impressive 3D bass (I mean, in good recording you can kind of touch it)
4. Mid-range natural, but there is something in the upper midrange that makes it a bit bright (did not calibrate with Dirac Live yet)
5. Imaging great, within small space
6. Scene is not huge, but exist
7. Central picture is incredible, these huge speakers build the center so massive and present. I Love the center picture and do not like the "huge" scene. So it is very preferable for me.
8. Overall distortion was so low, so I pushed it to 92db SPL in the listening position, a tough time listening for long... incredible clarity
9. Easy, very easy to merge with subs, because it goes in the room so low (40hz easily)
10. They look awesome, fit into my setup.

Now, I did not get NCx500 AMP yet, I know it is cleaner than 252MP by 12-17dB (depending on the gain setting). Thinking about investing another 1000$, should I do it?
252MP can go very loud, with -10db headroom (4 times the power to limit) it was about 90db SPL in the listening position

 

[DanielT]

This maybe:

You don't need to know Norwegian, just watch the video and you'll get an idea of what it's all about.

Apparently that was his end game, but what's yours? What kind of goals do you have? What kind of sound do you want?

 

[sigbergaudio]

This maybe:

Apparently that was his end game, but what's yours? What kind of goals do you have? What kind of sound do you want?

Fun fact: That guy built our first prototypes and pre-production Inkognito subwoofers.

 

[AudioKC]

After a few weeks with the Kef R11, I'm genuinely impressed by these powerful speakers. They are certainly end-game for me.

Some observations I'd like to share:

1. Their brightness aligns well with my preference. With Dirac Live adjustments, they sound more in line with my target, especially with the reduced energy above 4kHz.
2. The midrange of the Kef R11 is nothing short of majestic. They create a vast, expansive soundstage but retain excellent central imaging.
3. When we talk about details at high SPL, these speakers define it. Exceptionally low distortion and I've noticed virtually no compression even at 90-96db SPL. The Kef R11 is designed to play loud, incredibly so.
4. They demand a potent AMP—certainly something above 200 watts to truly harness their potential.
5. I recommend using at least two subwoofers. The reason isn't immediately apparent, but if you push these speakers to their full range and aim for low distortion and minimal compression, a single subwoofer might struggle, especially with significant EQ adjustments via Dirac Live Bass Control. Even my robust Monolith Sub shows signs of compression at higher volumes. To truly complement the KEF R11, I'd suggest pairing them with two 500-watt subwoofers. Additionally, dual subs invariably offer a more linear bass response in a room, improving overall sound quality.

Currently, enjoying every moment with them and thinking about an upgrade to the NCx500 AMP.

 

[AudioKC]

A small note, there is something in directivity in the 5-9k range that rarely bothers me and frequently bothers my wife. Some reflection, I bet a ceiling reflection.

You can see it in 40-60 degree bump in reflection. Dirac Live says it's flat, but it is not. In some recordings I can hear it, I did a shelve filter for now. It works and brings some details down/back, but it is a good tradeoff for reducing this bump.

I will tread the ceiling exactly at the 30-60 degree reflection of the sitting position and measure results in the room. I'm almost certain that it is a ceiling reflection.

Other than that, it's a true endgame speaker for me.

p.s. I do not know how and why, but my Revel M105 tweeter still feels better in the high-frequency range, over 4K, I mean that the Revel M105 treble is better than Kef twitter treble
p.p.s. I post R3 measurements due to 100% similarity in Twitter manufacturing and measurements of speakers, everything above 1Khz is compatible for R3 and R11

 

[morpheusX]

Apparently that was his end game.

More details here

Hunsbedt's No.3 - hjemmekino og stereo i eget tilbygg

Velkommen til No.3! Tenkte jeg skulle vise litt av opplegget jeg har fått til så langt her på Sentralen. Byggingen startet senhøstes 2008, med råbygg på 50 kvadrat ferdig høsten 2009. Innredningen tok 4 år, og kinoen stod ferdig våren 2013. Hadde dette året besøk fra både Watt og L&B, og det er...

www.hifisentralen.no

 

[AudioKC]

More details here

Hunsbedt's No.3 - hjemmekino og stereo i eget tilbygg

Velkommen til No.3! Tenkte jeg skulle vise litt av opplegget jeg har fått til så langt her på Sentralen. Byggingen startet senhøstes 2008, med råbygg på 50 kvadrat ferdig høsten 2009. Innredningen tok 4 år, og kinoen stod ferdig våren 2013. Hadde dette året besøk fra både Watt og L&B, og det er...

www.hifisentralen.no

I need to learn more languages

 

[morpheusX]

I need to learn more languages

Same, but here i'm using google translate

 

[neRok]

You can see it in 40-60 degree bump in reflection. Dirac Live says it's flat, but it is not. In some recordings I can hear it, I did a shelve filter for now. It works and brings some details down/back, but it is a good tradeoff for reducing this bump.

I will tread the ceiling exactly at the 30-60 degree reflection of the sitting position and measure results in the room. I'm almost certain that it is a ceiling reflection.

Other than that, it's a true endgame speaker for me.

p.s. I do not know how and why, but my Revel M105 tweeter still feels better in the high-frequency range, over 4K, I mean that the Revel M105 treble is better than Kef twitter treble

I've seen in Erin's reviews of coaxial speakers such as Kef's and Kali IN5/IN8 that he says the direct "on axis" sound is often a bit "wrong". This is because of the tweeter being inside the mid woofer, and so it has all sorts of problems with reflections and stuff with regards to the inside edge of the woofer. So basically the woofer acts like a waveguide, but both are moving differently to each other, and so the end result isn't always perfect. He talks about it in this video from 3:30 mark, where he suggests listening off-axis between 10 and 20 degrees, to be sitting in an area of the response that isn't so affected. He says the same in the R3 video at the 1min mark.

So it seems to be a compromise vs the tweeters of the Revels you had. Coax have the point source benefits (more freq range from that point), but wave guided dome tweeters have more technically correct sound in the freq range they operate in.

If you think your problem is with the vertical axis, then that's a bit harder to fix (vs horizontal = simple toe adjustment). But you could put something under the speakers to raise them a little (eg wood), which might help.

 

[AudioKC]

If you think your problem is with the vertical axis, then that's a bit harder to fix

i think its 30-60 degree reflection in 4-9k region. Treatment might help. Will share results of ceiling treatment with absorption panel.

Graphs and Measurements for KEF R3

www.spinorama.org

 

[Looneybomber]

If you’re concerned with higher frequency, off-axis energy, you can do an easy experiment, well easier than hanging ceiling treatments.

Place the absorbing panel on top of your speaker protruding beyond the baffle by a few feet. Use math to see how far. This will absorb the HF energy before it makes its way to the ceiling.

As an added bonus, it’ll act like a much larger panel placed on the ceiling. Think of a lightbulb where your MF/HF driver is and the shadow cast on the ceiling.