If speakers are located in a living area (vs a music specific room), perhaps people get used to the room modes in day to day use.
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Embracing Simplicity in Audio: Anyone Else Skipping Room Correction, Measurement Microphones, and the Like?
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OP
computer-audiophile
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This argument cannot be dismissed out of hand. That's why I'm always grateful to get feedback from other listeners. Unfortunately, it hasn't been so often the case recently because I don't have many experienced listeners or audio experts in my current environment.
That used to be better. By the way, I used to have some of my own speaker designs measured by people who had the appropriate professional equipment and professional experience in this field. I have invested relatively little in explicit audio measurement gear myself so far.
D
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Surely, this is a humorous post? Yes? No?
If you're serious, then I'm definitely the odd man out here. When I visit enthusiast friends (the few that are still alive) we discuss the age at which Sinatra lost his voice, or we discuss Celidache vs. Abbado, or Bach vs. Albinoni, or even the limitations of fortissimo with small speakers (a favorite of mine).
The equipment is just a conveyance. After all, do you drink beer and obsess over the bottle?
Jim
Oh, I was serious. My music room is primarily for listening, so I don't get to admire its modes in normal life, so to speak.
You never hung around with home brewers, did you?
DanielT
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Okay, but then maybe this thing about EQing doesn't appeal to you? You can of course do exactly what you want.
A friend of mine measured my subwoofers,Yamaha YST-SW300. Surprisingly good for its age.
They dig down to around 23 Hz f3 BUT the room. Terrible FR with those subwoofers in that room. It will undeniably improve the sound significantly by EQing them. And the MUCH better FR EASILY trumps the possibly small distortion, noise that I then add to perform that operation. Added distortion, noise which is also probably not audible.In any case, I'll be tinkering with it during the Christmas holidays.With the reservation that it may have been brought up in the thread before. You haven't considered a mix of active subwoofers powered by class d amps, measured FR and then you set the EQ. You don't touch the rest of your HiFi solution with EQ. There you use your tube amps you like.
Perhaps even better two bass modules that work in stereo up to around 300 Hz? They are then powerd by class d amps, measured and set FR via EQ. Everything above 300 Hz powered with your tube amps and no EQ.
HP-LP filter between sub/bass modules and the rest of your stuff.
Finding bottles is half the fun lolI guess not.
Jim
OP
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Waxx
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that's more or less my dsp'ed system you are describing, the bass is a 10" woofer powered with a Hypex Ncore amp, the top is powered with a tube amp and the crossover is a minidsp flex. But next to that i have a non dsp speaker, that works like i want it without any dsp. And when i tried to eq it flat, it didn't do the job anymore...With the reservation that it may have been brought up in the thread before. You haven't considered a mix of active subwoofers powered by class d amps, measured FR and then you set the EQ. You don't touch the rest of your HiFi solution with EQ. There you use your tube amps you like.
Perhaps even better two bass modules that work in stereo up to around 300 Hz? They are then powerd by class d amps, measured and set FR via EQ. Everything above 300 Hz powered with your tube amps and no EQ.
HP-LP filter between sub/bass modules and the rest of your stuff.
OP
computer-audiophile
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- #690
Sorry, maybe this is your cup of tea.Okay, but then maybe this thing about EQing doesn't appeal to you? You can of course do exactly what you want.
A friend of mine measured my subwoofers,Yamaha YST-SW300. Surprisingly good for its age.
With the reservation that it may have been brought up in the thread before. You haven't considered a mix of active subwoofers powered by class d amps, measured FR and then you set the EQ. You don't touch the rest of your HiFi solution with EQ. There you use your tube amps you like.
Perhaps even better two bass modules that work in stereo up to around 300 Hz? They are then powerd by class d amps, measured and set FR via EQ. Everything above 300 Hz powered with your tube amps and no EQ.
HP-LP filter between sub/bass modules and the rest of your stuff.
OP
computer-audiophile
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- #691
Surprise, surprise.
Lots of bookshelves there, too.Surprise, surprice.
I skip EQ these days. Bit-perfect signal to the DAC to preamp to amp. My main 2 speakers are flat enough in the room down to 30hz or so. Send a summed mono feed to a subwoofer with its crossover set at 30hz.
The in-room response of my surround speakers is really bad but the center is ok. There are dips deep enough that EQ isn’t going to fix it. I set the distances and levels manually and skip the room correction.
I used to worry about such things, but I found that I spent more time tweaking, testing, and worrying. Now I just prefer to spent that time listening and watching.
The in-room response of my surround speakers is really bad but the center is ok. There are dips deep enough that EQ isn’t going to fix it. I set the distances and levels manually and skip the room correction.
I used to worry about such things, but I found that I spent more time tweaking, testing, and worrying. Now I just prefer to spent that time listening and watching.
You need what me and my wife have, separate discretionary spending accounts. we can buy whatever we want with them, and the other person has not say and no right to complain.
OP
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While I am not lacking in funds or good intentions, it seems premature and impractical to make a purchase at the moment, given that we are not facing a problem enjoying our music in high quality.
I am confident that more refined DRC solutions will emerge in the coming years. In the meantime, I can invest this time to delve deeper into the subject matter. I enjoy immersing myself in technical topics, ensuring that I thoroughly understand them before taking any decisive action.
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Not really doubting you (how could I with all the qualifiers in there?), but do you have any data to back this up? Are there particular ARCs that are bad? Did they not confirm their ARC with before/after measurements? I’m curious because mine has the ability to on/off so I can at least A/B it to see if the correction makes sense. I also measured before and after to make sure it’s solution was reasonable.
"Frankly my dear I don't give a damn!"
No, it is not a line from things that are "Gone with the Wind". That line is all mine!
Think it for a moment about that proverbial horse and the cart: Similarly does the Music drive the Equipment or the Equipment drive the Music?
Sure, I would prefer a mega-buck system that is perfectly 'tuned' for eeking out all the nuances of content (all my hardware is under $10K).
Case in point:
View attachment 330179 View attachment 330180
I no longer really care where the music comes from or how it connects to my brain cells... as long as it makes my foot beat to the music; I am blessed.
I do feel (sadness) for those who purchase mega-buck systems yet still have to further complicate 'matters' with EQ, etc.
Mediocrity, indeed.
I didn’t understand it. Can you explain it?"Frankly my dear I don't give a damn!"
No, it is not a line from things that are "Gone with the Wind". That line is all mine!
Think it for a moment about that proverbial horse and the cart: Similarly does the Music drive the Equipment or the Equipment drive the Music?
Sure, I would prefer a mega-buck system that is perfectly 'tuned' for eeking out all the nuances of content (all my hardware is under $10K).
Case in point:
View attachment 330179 View attachment 330180
I no longer really care where the music comes from or how it connects to my brain cells... as long as it makes my foot beat to the music; I am blessed.
I do feel (sadness) for those who purchase mega-buck systems yet still have to further complicate 'matters' with EQ, etc.
Mediocrity, indeed.
Not sure exactly what you need data to back up?
Was your understanding prior to my post that activating automatic room correction, regardless of product, brand or situation (room/listening position), the result would always be better than without?
EDIT: I see you already added a disclaimer than one need to both A/B test to check if the correction works, and also measure before and after to consider what has been done. Sounds like you agree with me. (?)
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I do think that is a very good point in favour of subs and room correction.
IF you are stuck with a room in which bass is too problematic for a full range floor standing speaker, and you'd like full range sound, then you no longer have to abandon getting that sound - room correction will help you achieve non-boomy sound with full range speakers or adding subs.
On the other hand I have found the audiophile shibboleth "don't put large speakers in a smaller room" to be somewhat overblown. I've heard large speakers work very well in smallish rooms. In my own 13' by 16' room I've rarely had a major issue with floor standing speakers, including some that went down to below 25Hz.
Subjectively the sound was smooth enough to create the impression of a very even sound on most tracks.
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The emphasis on using room correction, especially for bass, brings up the subject of taste regarding bass properties.
I think a lot of us audiophiles, when we first start discovering audiophile quality sound, find it a revelation. And hearing a system that actually does bass accurately, tight, no bloat, is part of that revelation. It cleans up the sound, and instruments sound more natural, less "speakerly and artificially produced" and it's a big "wow."
And so overwarm or "one note" or bloated bass become a sort of enemy number one on the audiophile list, and we almost snear when we hear "normie" systems with their cheesy, artificial bloated bass.
I've often sought this too, been very cognizant whenever I audition systems or speakers that the bass is well controlled.
On the other hand, there can be what I've come to think of as "Audiophile Bass." That is, bass that is so tightly controlled that it can loose some tactile room-feel and pleasure...too buttoned down. If you are listening to real bass instruments they occupy the room with you and have very tactile feel. On many audiophile systems the recording is so linear and controlled, the bass instrument will appear "over there" occupying it's exact spot in the soundstage, but it will seem to sort of stay "over there" in the space of the recording. It doesn't feel like a bass instrument IN the room exciting the room, where the bass reaches out and rolls over you, exciting you and the room. So one audiophile may hear a perfectly flat system and think "wow, nirvana! Nothing sticking out, no bloat, just the recording!" Another may feel "hmm...interesting...but something missing..." The audiophile message is usually that "We normally have come to expect over-pronounced bass but once you've experienced perfectly flat bass, it's a revelation, you'll never go back." But...I don't think that's always the case necessarily.
I had more linear "audiophile bass" when I had my subs, but I went back to just using my speakers full range because I preferred the extra tactile "reach out flow over me" bass feel. In no way would I characterize the bass in my system bloated or one-note, I'd hate that! I played bass guitar and keyboards, Funk, dance and electronica are among my favourite genres, so I demand good bass quality: I want to hear the character of the instruments. My system's bass sounds tight and punchy. But it's not as perfected as it could be - there occasions where a bass node makes something stick out, but it is rare - most tracks sound very clean and even top to bottom, and what room emphasis is there is, to my ears, cannily integrated to give me more tactile pleasure in the sound.
I think a lot of us audiophiles, when we first start discovering audiophile quality sound, find it a revelation. And hearing a system that actually does bass accurately, tight, no bloat, is part of that revelation. It cleans up the sound, and instruments sound more natural, less "speakerly and artificially produced" and it's a big "wow."
And so overwarm or "one note" or bloated bass become a sort of enemy number one on the audiophile list, and we almost snear when we hear "normie" systems with their cheesy, artificial bloated bass.
I've often sought this too, been very cognizant whenever I audition systems or speakers that the bass is well controlled.
On the other hand, there can be what I've come to think of as "Audiophile Bass." That is, bass that is so tightly controlled that it can loose some tactile room-feel and pleasure...too buttoned down. If you are listening to real bass instruments they occupy the room with you and have very tactile feel. On many audiophile systems the recording is so linear and controlled, the bass instrument will appear "over there" occupying it's exact spot in the soundstage, but it will seem to sort of stay "over there" in the space of the recording. It doesn't feel like a bass instrument IN the room exciting the room, where the bass reaches out and rolls over you, exciting you and the room. So one audiophile may hear a perfectly flat system and think "wow, nirvana! Nothing sticking out, no bloat, just the recording!" Another may feel "hmm...interesting...but something missing..." The audiophile message is usually that "We normally have come to expect over-pronounced bass but once you've experienced perfectly flat bass, it's a revelation, you'll never go back." But...I don't think that's always the case necessarily.
I had more linear "audiophile bass" when I had my subs, but I went back to just using my speakers full range because I preferred the extra tactile "reach out flow over me" bass feel. In no way would I characterize the bass in my system bloated or one-note, I'd hate that! I played bass guitar and keyboards, Funk, dance and electronica are among my favourite genres, so I demand good bass quality: I want to hear the character of the instruments. My system's bass sounds tight and punchy. But it's not as perfected as it could be - there occasions where a bass node makes something stick out, but it is rare - most tracks sound very clean and even top to bottom, and what room emphasis is there is, to my ears, cannily integrated to give me more tactile pleasure in the sound.
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