Dutch & Dutch 8c Review

[Sal1950]

I am in the UK. Currently waiting for a response from what I assume is the NL based D&D office.

This morning with everything "cold", the speaker booted up twice without issue. Makes me think that taking the electronics out and putting them back has knocked some connection or loose solder joint back into position. I will keep testing every day.

I was going to recommend you disconnect and reconnect every plugged connection on both boards when you were in there, specially the ribbons. The micro level signals can be easily effected by a tiny connection irregularity. But your on a different path now. so just sayin,
Wish you the best of luck!
Sal1950

I'm surprised that ASR users find this failure rate to be unusual. Other types of products often have similar or higher failure rates.

I've had early failures in laptops (a Dell and a Macbook Pro), smartphones (Google Pixel 2 and Pixel 7), and, most recently, a high-dollar refrigerator. The $13K refrigerator failed in 18 months with no possibility of repair and no replacement models in stock, and I practically had to sue the manufacturer to do anything about it. The regional head of repairs for this manufacturer told me, in a candid moment, that the failure rate for this model of refrigerator is 100% within two years.

In this light, a failure rate of 2.8% (which may amount to only one amplifier module failing in each speaker) strikes me as low. I did experience the cracked cabinets issue, and it was resolved with the mid-2018 redesign of the 8Cs.

Only fair you name that frig manufacturer.

you can never become "old" without at some point being "new"
That thinking would have no suppliers eventually

Quite true but like the stock market or any other investment, we each have to individually weigh the risk against our ability to absorb loss.
Personally I would only invest in a more grounded company, but that's just me.
In any case it's issues like this that will keep me on the passive path for my duration.
If one of my 30yo Adcom amps should let the smoke out, I have a spare on the shelf just in case.
Same for everything in my system.
Worst case, I'm down an hour or so.
YMMV

I'm not sure how D&D gets targeted after we learn how, for example, Geithain treats its customers.

This is the D&D thread and we know nothing about Geithain, I never even heard of them.
That said @nastypoker came here looking for help and along the way we learned of other failures.
I don't know if the % is high or low, but the discussion of the issue has been quite fair and I don't see
anyone kicking D&D unfairly. Schitt happens.

I don't think this issue is "picking on" D&D. The combination of high power amps and high power computing power in expensive audio products has many examples of short lifespans and unavailability of parts (usually IC's) making them unrepairable. I bought a high end AVR that failed and could not be repaired due to lack of parts after just 5 years. The issue with high end proprietary electronics in active speakers is even more risky for the consumer as most of the cost of these products is mechanical but the whole system could be rendered useless for the want of one IC. Things happen even to good companies in this industry. I don't know the answer but the issue is a real concern for consumers.

Exactly!

 

[Dialectic]

You can't equate the failure of a driver with the failure of a proprietary IC. Repairable faults are not a big deal, unrepairable faults are, especially with expensive gear.

I don't believe the

I was going to recommend you disconnect and reconnect every plugged connection on both boards when you were in there, specially the ribbons. The micro level signals can be easily effected by a tiny connection irregularity. But your on a different path now. so just sayin,
Wish you the best of luck!
Sal1950


Only fair you name that frig manufacturer.


Quite true but like the stock market or any other investment, we each have to individually weigh the risk against our ability to absorb loss.
Personally I would only invest in a more grounded company, but that's just me.
In any case it's issues like this that will keep me on the passive path for my duration.
If one of my 30yo Adcom amps should let the smoke out, I have a spare on the shelf just in case.
Same for everything in my system.
Worst case, I'm down an hour or so.
YMMV


This is the D&D thread and we know nothing about Geithain, I never even heard of them.
That said @nastypoker came here looking for help and along the way we learned of other failures.
I don't know if the % is high or low, but the discussion of the issue has been quite fair and I don't see
anyone kicking D&D unfairly. Schitt happens.


Exactly!

Failed fridge was a Monogram (purchased only because it was the only model that would fit without renovations). The previous Monogram fridge in the house lasted 22 years; the new one started malfunctioning in six months.

We got a $16K SubZero and are happy with it after three months--despite the obscene price and the need to move around connections, etc.

 

[Sal1950]

The previous Monogram fridge in the house lasted 22 years; the new one started malfunctioning in six months.

I hear that all the time, it's the crap refrigerant we're forced to use by the government today..
What the hell does some suit in .gov know about refrigerants?

 

[Soniclife]

We got a $16K SubZero and are happy with it after three months--despite the obscene price and the need to move around connections, etc.

For 16K I hope it's able to drive itself to the shops for a pint of milk.
I'm rarely shocked by the ridiculous prices of things these days but that's got me.

 

[Dialectic]

For 16K I hope it's able to drive itself to the shops for a pint of milk.
I'm rarely shocked by the ridiculous prices of things these days but that's got me.

No kidding...

 

[jeffme]

what is important is that D&D replace any faulty equipment instantly and without quibble.

Amen, brother, amen!

 

[nastypoker]

I tested my 8c's with analogue input and the glitchy sound doesn't happen. I have been doing more googling and it appears someone else had a similar issue with the MiniDSP SHD and it was something to do with the USB port, either data transfer limits or an earthing issue. I am going to test with a toslink cable tonight and see if that resolves it. Either way, it seems like this is not an issue with the 8c's which is good news.

D&D have offered me a replacement amp. Just waiting to hear back from them to confirm details of how the exchange will work and if they are happy for me to post the cost here.

 

[JustJones]

I tested my 8c's with analogue input and the glitchy sound doesn't happen. I have been doing more googling and it appears someone else had a similar issue with the MiniDSP SHD and it was something to do with the USB port, either data transfer limits or an earthing issue. I am going to test with a toslink cable tonight and see if that resolves it. Either way, it seems like this is not an issue with the 8c's which is good news.

D&D have offered me a replacement amp. Just waiting to hear back from them to confirm details of how the exchange will work and if they are happy for me to post the cost here.

Have tried taking the computer out of the chain and running ethernet to the SHD Studio and using it's streamer or running ethernet direct to the 8c? Your AES3 termination plug snug in the opposing 8c?

 

[nastypoker]

Have tried taking the computer out of the chain and running ethernet to the SHD Studio and using it's streamer or running ethernet direct to the 8c? Your AES3 termination plug snug in the opposing 8c?

I did try spotify connect which goes through ethernet but the speaker with the boot up issue sounded AWFUL, stuttering and crackly. The other speak seemed ok but I didn't do a proper listening test because of the bad speaker.

I will test again with the one good one!

 

[Purité Audio]

I tested my 8c's with analogue input and the glitchy sound doesn't happen. I have been doing more googling and it appears someone else had a similar issue with the MiniDSP SHD and it was something to do with the USB port, either data transfer limits or an earthing issue. I am going to test with a toslink cable tonight and see if that resolves it. Either way, it seems like this is not an issue with the 8c's which is good news.

D&D have offered me a replacement amp. Just waiting to hear back from them to confirm details of how the exchange will work and if they are happy for me to post the cost here.

What was the sample rate you were using when the glitching occurred?
Keith

 

[JustJones]

I did try spotify connect which goes through ethernet but the speaker with the boot up issue sounded AWFUL, stuttering and crackly. The other speak seemed ok but I didn't do a proper listening test because of the bad speaker.

I will test again with the one good one!

Did you disconnect everything but the ethernet cable from the speakers when you tried spotify? Get everything out of the chain? When I troubleshoot I take everything out then add back one at a time. When you say they're sending an amp board is that the entire bottom plate? That rocker arm problem seems more like a power supply or switch problem. Not sure if you get the entire thing or not.

 

[nastypoker]

What was the sample rate you were using when the glitching occurred?
Keith

I tried many different options and it made no discernible difference.

Did you disconnect everything but the ethernet cable from the speakers when you tried spotify? Get everything out of the chain? When I troubleshoot I take everything out then add back one at a time. When you say they're sending an amp board is that the entire bottom plate? That rocker arm problem seems more like a power supply or switch problem. Not sure if you get the entire thing or not.

No I did not. I will try a few combinations tonight. Thanks for the tips.

Not sure on the details of what they are proposing to send. He just mentioned the issue is most likely the Pascal amp.

 

[JustJones]

I tried many different options and it made no discernible difference.


No I did not. I will try a few combinations tonight. Thanks for the tips.

Not sure on the details of what they are proposing to send. He just mentioned the issue is most likely the Pascal amp.

That's good , they should know what issues they've had.

 

[tw99]

I tested my 8c's with analogue input and the glitchy sound doesn't happen. I have been doing more googling and it appears someone else had a similar issue with the MiniDSP SHD and it was something to do with the USB port, either data transfer limits or an earthing issue. I am going to test with a toslink cable tonight and see if that resolves it. Either way, it seems like this is not an issue with the 8c's which is good news.

D&D have offered me a replacement amp. Just waiting to hear back from them to confirm details of how the exchange will work and if they are happy for me to post the cost here.

Are you sure the cable you're using from the SHD Studio to the speakers, and then between the speakers are both proper 110ohm AES cables, rather than 75ohm normal XLRs ?

I understand that the D&Ds are a bit picky about cables, especially as the SHD can only output at 96Khz and the D&Ds work at 48Khz. Given that there will be sample rate conversion anyway, it's probably not losing much, and almost certainly inaudible, to use the analogue connection, but of course the Studio doesn't have analogue out... I'm using a regular SHD which does have that.

 

[muslhead]

I don't believe the
Failed fridge was a Monogram (purchased only because it was the only model that would fit without renovations). The previous Monogram fridge in the house lasted 22 years; the new one started malfunctioning in six months.

We got a $16K SubZero and are happy with it after three months--despite the obscene price and the need to move around connections, etc.

Like audio, its clear that money spent has nothing to do with longevity or quality .... sadly.

 

[muslhead]

Are you sure the cable you're using from the SHD Studio to the speakers, and then between the speakers are both proper 110ohm AES cables, rather than 75ohm normal XLRs ?

I understand that the D&Ds are a bit picky about cables, especially as the SHD can only output at 96Khz and the D&Ds work at 48Khz. Given that there will be sample rate conversion anyway, it's probably not losing much, and almost certainly inaudible, to use the analogue connection, but of course the Studio doesn't have analogue out... I'm using a regular SHD which does have that.

I used standard xlr cables initially on mine and never had a problem. Eventually, after moving and needing new lengths, i switched to AES. They cant be that picky

 

[nastypoker]

Are you sure the cable you're using from the SHD Studio to the speakers, and then between the speakers are both proper 110ohm AES cables, rather than 75ohm normal XLRs ?

I understand that the D&Ds are a bit picky about cables, especially as the SHD can only output at 96Khz and the D&Ds work at 48Khz. Given that there will be sample rate conversion anyway, it's probably not losing much, and almost certainly inaudible, to use the analogue connection, but of course the Studio doesn't have analogue out... I'm using a regular SHD which does have that.

The cables I bought were specifically marked as 110ohm DMX and AES EBU timecode leads so I hope they are.

 

[nastypoker]

Well it took me 45 mins of power cycling to get the faulty speaker to boot up and then it was intermittently working for 5-10 mins before it started working 100%.

D&D have said they will ship out a replacement board to me this week so can't fault their service so far.

To solve the SQ issue, first thing I tried was the toslink cable as it is the quickest way for me to check. So now my routing for this test is laptop > HDMI > TV > toslink > MiniDSP SHD > AES > 8c and there is no crackling issue.

 

[muslhead]

Well it took me 45 mins of power cycling to get the faulty speaker to boot up and then it was intermittently working for 5-10 mins before it started working 100%.

D&D have said they will ship out a replacement board to me this week so can't fault their service so far.

To solve the SQ issue, first thing I tried was the toslink cable as it is the quickest way for me to check. So now my routing for this test is laptop > HDMI > TV > toslink > MiniDSP SHD > AES > 8c and there is no crackling issue.

Congrats, hopefully that is the end of that problem.
Either way, you are in good hands with the DD support team

 

[Pearljam5000]

Why doesn't Genelec and Neumann also build something similar to the 8C , with subs on the back ?
How hard can it be ?