DSD genuine improvement or marketing tool?

[amirm]

http://www.grimmaudio.com/site/assets/files/1088/dsd_myth.pdf

I like the experiment they suggest in adding DSD ultrasonic noise to PCM and see what happens.

 

[NorthSky]

I agree with Paul in that thread. You will usually find manufacturers who don't make products compatible, won't try to convince people that their competitors products are superior. And he was a DSD skeptic once his self!

But it's the same with everything. You will never find a tube amp manufacturer that will tell you to go with class D. And you will never be told a a BMW dealership that there's better cars across the street at the Mercedes dealership.

I can relate to that Mike. And this AudioScienceReview website started by Amir right here is the place I want to learn about that stuff and much more...
I like to know exactly what's inside the audio products we buy, and their compatibility with other audio products...plus which music software feels the most comfortable (performance playing) with what audio source, and DAC.

Plus, if there are glitches in some software update (programs), I want to know too the all truth. I don't want to be blinded by charlatans or by people saying nothing because they are afraid to lose their credibility and their friends, and their business sales.

No sir, this is Science here, and Audio Science is the pursuit of all the facts, in and out. I'm a genuine audio learner, not a sucker. It's my money, nobody else money.
And I want to spend it very very very intelligently. ...Without asking for the Moon, but just good sounding music science and senses.

DSD or not, that is the question. ...But no doubt in my mind that SACDs sound pretty good in general, in vast general.
And the better CD music record labels they too sound magnificent.

Should we have a list of the better music record labels for both DSD (SACD) and CD?
And then another list for the quality and affordable DSD/SACD/CD players and DACs?
And last, a list of synergy; most compatible audio components to play the most compatible music software (mediums).

 

[Mivera]

I can relate to that Mike. And this AudioScienceReview website started by Amir right here is the place I want to learn about that stuff and much more...
I like to know exactly what's inside the audio products we buy, and their compatibility with other audio products...plus which music software feels the most comfortable (performance playing) with what audio source, and DAC.

Plus, if there are glitches in some software update (programs), I want to know too the all truth. I don't want to be blinded by charlatans or by people saying nothing because they are afraid to lose their credibility and their friends, and their business sales.

No sir, this is Science here, and Audio Science is the pursuit of all the facts, in and out. I'm a genuine audio learner, not a sucker. It's my money, nobody else money.
And I want to spend it very very very intelligently. ...Without asking for the Moon, but just good sounding music science and senses.

DSD or not, that is the question. ...But no doubt in my mind that SACDs sound pretty good in general, in vast general.
And the better CD music record labels they too sound magnificent.

Should we have a list of the better music record labels for both DSD (SACD) and CD?
And then another list for the quality and affordable DSD/SACD/CD players and DACs?
And last, a list of synergy; most compatible audio components to play the most compatible music software (mediums).

Come take a drive to Kelowna and I will demonstrate things that will be eye opening. I have all of the proper gear to do proper evaluations. Doing google searches for answers usually results in 80% BS and 20% facts. Nothing beats hands on experience with the right gear. Very few have the right gear, and unless they do, their opinion means nothing.

 

[NorthSky]

Maybe this summer...

 

[FrantzM]

Was about to get an i7 just so that I could updample my PCM to DSD because I though that I heard a positive diference when playing DSD .. then one day I paid attention and could not hear any difference worth debating about .. So I am back to straight PCM at whatever sample and bit rate it is offered. I will save my money toward better drivers for my future DIY subs
THe more I am noticing how much the placebo effect is strong , the less I am inclined to spend money on these "upgrades"... It also helps that I can't find any compelling technical reason for the alleged superiority over PCM . If there are any , I would like to be educated.

 

[Mivera]

Was about to get an i7 just so that I could updample my PCM to DSD because I though that I heard a positive diference when playing DSD .. then one day I paid attention and could not hear any difference worth debating about .. So I am back to straight PCM at whatever sample and bit rate it is offered. I will save my money toward better drivers for my future DIY subs
THe more I am noticing how much the placebo effect is strong , the less I am inclined to spend money on these "upgrades"... It also helps that I can't find any compelling technical reason for the alleged superiority over PCM . If there are any , I would like to be educated.

Yes as explained thoroughly earlier, the hardware used does matter with DSD. Which DAC were you using for the evaluation?

 

[Thomas savage]

DSD sounds crap through my DAC...,

 

[Mivera]

DSD sounds crap through my DAC...,
View attachment 401

Is that the latest Mivera DAC?

 

[Thomas savage]

Is that the latest Lampi?

yea its a prototype... its called 'the big.. mess'

nice point to point, just thinking about tube rolling and getting some fire extinguishers .

 

[Mivera]

yea its a prototype... its called 'the big.. mess'

Sweet. Should be a hot seller!. Maybe king Amir could have his face engraved on the case?

 

[Opus111]

I guess you won't like the Mola Mola DAC much then. Because it converts all PCM to a 1 bit DSD like format.

Its true its 1bit, but there the similarity ends with DSD - its PWM (W=width) whereas DSD is PDM (D=density).

 

[Mivera]

Its true its 1bit, but there the similarity ends with DSD - its PWM (W=width) whereas DSD is PDM (D=density).

It's not a whole lot different.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

It's all a moot point unless a market for DSD content develops, and I'm not holding my breath.

Tim

 

[amirm]

DSD download is on an upswing right now from audiophile labels. Its brand carries weight with audiophiles which seemingly like it better than PCM and hence drive the availability.

 

[Mivera]

It's all a moot point unless a market for DSD content develops, and I'm not holding my breath.

Tim

To me what matters most is the recording/transfer quality as all my audio is up-sampled to quad DSD anyways. Even streamed Tidal redbook can sound stunning doing this.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

DSD download is on an upswing right now from audiophile labels. Its brand carries weight with audiophiles which seemingly like it better than PCM and hence drive the availability.

I, and most music lovers, have about as much interest in "audiophile labels" as we do in watching paint dry. That's not going to do the trick.

Tim

 

[NorthSky]

There are quite a few audiophiles, and even some recording engineers, who are insanely insistent on the sonic superiority of DSD. Having been through countless arguments with them over many years, like you, I am not sold on any inherent sonic advantages, nor have I heard any obvious disadvantages. Many other recording engineers are just as sold on the merits of hi rez PCM over DSD, based on sonics and not just ease of editing and mastering.

I have not done a lot of comparisons myself of CD or hi rez PCM vs. SACD. That is easy enough to do by comparing the CD layer to the DSD stereo layer of any "hybrid" SACD. But, they must be accurately level matched, since PCM and DSD levels are different, and that might not be so easy to achieve. There are only a few, scarce SACD/DSD test discs with test tones adequate to calibrate for equal volume. So, I believe many user anecdotes about DSD vs. PCM are inaccurate because of this. Accurate volume level matching with music is not easy.

I have tons of SACDs, but their appeal to me is because they are multichannel, not because they are DSD. Some sound really great and many of those where originally recorded and mastered in DSD, others in hi rez PCM. Some DSD fans claim they can hear whether the SACD recording was originally in DSD or not. Some of the 2L recordings are released in a combo SACD/BD-A box, enabling a comparison of DSD vs. hi rez PCM. I, and many others, find that the PCM version sounds noticeably somewhat better. But, DSD fans would say that is because the recordings are originally DXD=PCM.

It seems from many accounts that DSD has a softer, some might say a less resolving, top end. I could be wrong, but this might be plausible due to issues with the reconstruction filtering of PCM, pre-and post-ringing, etc., especially in comparison to CD and especially on "lesser grade" CD players. If true, I can see that some would prefer the "more analog" sound of DSD.

I have done some informal comparisons of DSD64, DSD128, PCM192, PCM352(DXD) all from the same analog master. Excuse me if I yawn at the sonic differences. But, a number of DSD fans say that the ever higher multiples of basic DSD64 makes all the difference. If so, I have not yet heard it.

Incidentally, I convert all my SACDs during playback to PCM88 for Dirac room correction, bass management, etc. That sounds much better to me than does native pure DSD playback.

I missed that ↑ read (message) from prior.
I think Bruce (from WBF) would have the best answers to all of that. And it depends of many things...

But from a pure subjective ear, to me SACDs and XRCD24 (& others), sound pretty good, and so are regular CDs from RR, Ch.Clas., ECM, ...
In general, but some SACDs aren't extraordinary. Some Japanese and European and German CDs are much much much better than most North American CDs.
In America sound quality is not important, money is.

That's my overall/general opinion from my own elementary experience. ...General.

 

[JoeWhip]

To me, the most important thing is the quality of the original recording itself. I have heard excellent sounding DSD recordings and some not so great, at least to me. There are engineers who get great results with DSD and others with PCM. Overall, I prefer PCM and have quite a few hydrid SACDs and have generally preferred the sound of the CD layer. An example of why I do so is Patricia Barber SACD Nightclub. I always preferred the CD layer through by Theta and then Schiit DAC than the DSD layer through my SACD player. The DSD always sounded softer and recessed than the CD. I finally was able to compare a rip if the SACD layer with a rip of the CD layer through the same computer and DAC and found the same thing as my prior experiences. In short, I just don't get the devotion to DSD by some audiophiles. Of course, YMMV.

 

[NorthSky]

 

[NorthSky]