DSD genuine improvement or marketing tool?

[Purité Audio]

DSD, I never purchased any SACDs , the DSD material I have heard leaves me unconvinced.
http://www.weiss.ch/assets/content/41/white-paper-on-DSD.pdf

Your thoughts?
Keith.

 

[Opus111]

http://sjeng.org/ftp/SACD.pdf

 

[Thomas savage]

i have heard very few good sacd's. most sound flat, lack dynamics and just seems wrong. never had a issue with pcm, dont understand what all this DSD stuff is about, dont all signals get put into pcm to be mastered or edited?

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Haven't heard DSD. I experimented with comparing hi-res to PCM and concluded that I thought I might hear a difference sometimes. Or not. It wasn't even worth installing a program on top of iTunes that would automatically play the file in it's native resolution. I'm sure there is a difference, but I sure can't ID it consistently, probably never when listening to the music instead of listening for the difference. Of course all the music I want to listen to is PCM, so maybe I'm hearing what I want to hear. Could happen.

Tim

 

[amirm]

I plan to do more analysis but I have had a couple of limited opportunities to compare DSD256 and converted version to PCM. I can't detect the difference.

 

[Fitzcaraldo215]

Thomas - In answer to your question, no, not exactly. As I understand it, most native DSD recordings are DSD throughout except for editing spots - repairs of wrong notes from a different take, recorded glitches, etc. - where it is necessary to convert to DXD (352k PCM), then convert back to DSD. See the Weiss paper linked to in the first post. But, that is usually infrequent, minor and inaudible. This conversion is necessary because many editing tools are lacking in DSD.

 

[Mivera]

First thing that's required to do a proper assessment is to have a DAC on hand that does a good job of DSD decoding. I've explained on several threads already why DSD can sound better. It's mainly due to how it's handled on the DAC end of things. I know this because even when PCM is converted to DSD using the proper algorithms, it can sound better from the analog outputs of a good DSD capable DAC.

 

[Mivera]

DSD, I never purchased any SACDs , the DSD material I have heard leaves me unconvinced.
http://www.weiss.ch/assets/content/41/white-paper-on-DSD.pdf

Your thoughts?
Keith.

I guess you won't like the Mola Mola DAC much then. Because it converts all PCM to a 1 bit DSD like format.

 

[NorthSky]

Question:

A Hybrid SACD can have three layers:
1. CD layer with DSD encoding.
2. SACD stereo layer.
3. SACD multichannel layer.

Now, there are also dedicated DSD discs.

My question: Is the CD layer (with DSD recording process) of a hybrid SACD considered a DSD disc?

As it has been said; a CD with DSD recording (Sony Classic, and Telarc music record labels, others...), is supposedly better quality sounding than one without.
I give you an example, but this is not the best example because the master source could have been totally different:
I have several SACDs from the Stones and Bob Dylan (hybrids), and the CD layer of Bob Dylan ones I believe is recorded with DSD.
And of course they sound much better (just the CD layer here) than my original CDs.

* A DSD disc is one from China:
How many players can read them?

• http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/sacd-players-that-can-play-dsd-discs.224579/
• http://dsd-guide.com/faq/what-difference-between-dsd-audio-and-sacd#.VubvbOIrLIU

 

[Mivera]

In the early 2000's when they were trying to push the SACD format, they remastered a pile of CD's for SACD. As a result the CD layer also got remastered. Some were done quite well, but the majority were simply PCM up sampled to DSD using crap algorithms to today's standards. So a very large % of the SACD's out there are simply crap. It's only been the last couple years that we are starting to see things done right. This is because people are getting more aware, and the gear has gotten much better. So if you want to evaluate DSD, don't use one of these crappy early PCM-DSD conversions for a reference. Use something from Opus 3 or Yarlung records, with a high quality DAC that can process 1 bit DSD direct. Once you do that, you will no longer be in the camp with the skeptics I can assure everyone of this.

 

[NorthSky]

What kind of player can play these? → http://www.yesasia.com/us/search/dsd-cd/0-0-0-q.DSD+CD_bpt.48-en/list.html

A Sony CD/SACD player, a Universal Oppo BR player, any normal CD player, what?

_____________

Mike, a CD/SACD player (say from Sony, Oppo, Denon, Pioneer, ...) wouldn't do justice to DSD CD layer of my SACDs?
Columbia record label, Channel Classics, Harmonia Mundi, LSO Live, Sony Classical, Abkco, etc.?

Opus 3 & Yarlung use a different/better DSD process for their music recordings? ...And the others not?

I'm talking strictly physical discs here, with DSD processing/encoding, and NOT DSD files.
Discs that you buy, NOT that you burn.

 

[Fitzcaraldo215]

DSD, I never purchased any SACDs , the DSD material I have heard leaves me unconvinced.
http://www.weiss.ch/assets/content/41/white-paper-on-DSD.pdf

Your thoughts?
Keith.

There are quite a few audiophiles, and even some recording engineers, who are insanely insistent on the sonic superiority of DSD. Having been through countless arguments with them over many years, like you, I am not sold on any inherent sonic advantages, nor have I heard any obvious disadvantages. Many other recording engineers are just as sold on the merits of hi rez PCM over DSD, based on sonics and not just ease of editing and mastering.

I have not done a lot of comparisons myself of CD or hi rez PCM vs. SACD. That is easy enough to do by comparing the CD layer to the DSD stereo layer of any "hybrid" SACD. But, they must be accurately level matched, since PCM and DSD levels are different, and that might not be so easy to achieve. There are only a few, scarce SACD/DSD test discs with test tones adequate to calibrate for equal volume. So, I believe many user anecdotes about DSD vs. PCM are inaccurate because of this. Accurate volume level matching with music is not easy.

I have tons of SACDs, but their appeal to me is because they are multichannel, not because they are DSD. Some sound really great and many of those where originally recorded and mastered in DSD, others in hi rez PCM. Some DSD fans claim they can hear whether the SACD recording was originally in DSD or not. Some of the 2L recordings are released in a combo SACD/BD-A box, enabling a comparison of DSD vs. hi rez PCM. I, and many others, find that the PCM version sounds noticeably somewhat better. But, DSD fans would say that is because the recordings are originally DXD=PCM.

It seems from many accounts that DSD has a softer, some might say a less resolving, top end. I could be wrong, but this might be plausible due to issues with the reconstruction filtering of PCM, pre-and post-ringing, etc., especially in comparison to CD and especially on "lesser grade" CD players. If true, I can see that some would prefer the "more analog" sound of DSD.

I have done some informal comparisons of DSD64, DSD128, PCM192, PCM352(DXD) all from the same analog master. Excuse me if I yawn at the sonic differences. But, a number of DSD fans say that the ever higher multiples of basic DSD64 makes all the difference. If so, I have not yet heard it.

Incidentally, I convert all my SACDs during playback to PCM88 for Dirac room correction, bass management, etc. That sounds much better to me than does native pure DSD playback.

 

[Thomas savage]

What kind of player can play these? → http://www.yesasia.com/us/search/dsd-cd/0-0-0-q.DSD+CD_bpt.48-en/list.html

A Sony CD/SACD player, a Universal Oppo BR player, any normal CD player, what?

_____________

Mike, a CD/SACD player (say from Sony, Oppo, Denon, Pioneer, ...) wouldn't do justice to DSD CD layer of my SACDs?
Columbia record label, Channel Classics, Harmonia Mundi, LSO Live, Sony Classical, Abkco, etc.?

Opus 3 & Yarlung use a different/better DSD process for their music recordings? ...And the others not?

I'm talking strictly physical discs here, with DSD processing/encoding, and NOT DSD files.
Discs that you buy, NOT that you burn.

any cd player bob, its just mastered in DSD but will be PCM through your CD player.

 

[Mivera]

What kind of player can play these? → http://www.yesasia.com/us/search/dsd-cd/0-0-0-q.DSD+CD_bpt.48-en/list.html

A Sony CD/SACD player, a Universal Oppo BR player, any normal CD player, what?

_____________

Mike, a CD/SACD player (say from Sony, Oppo, Denon, Pioneer, ...) wouldn't do justice to DSD CD layer of my SACDs?
Columbia record label, Channel Classics, Harmonia Mundi, LSO Live, Sony Classical, Abkco, etc.?

Opus 3 & Yarlung use a different/better DSD process for their music recordings? ...And the others not?

I'm talking strictly physical discs here, with DSD processing/encoding, and NOT DSD files.
Discs that you buy, NOT that you burn.

I've actually never owned a SACD player besides a playstation. But I'm sure the SACD layer would sound better on an SACD player than the CD layer.

Yes Opus 3 & Yarlung do use better processes. Not just with the transfer to DSD, but with the recording as well. Some of the best sounding DSD I own. But if you want to step into the modern world, I would forget about the physical medium. There's no sonic advantage. Buy a Mirand Quad DSD capable DAC that is in the league of $5000+ DAC's for under $100o with case and power supply and you will
be set. 1 guy on the Diyaudio thread sold his $7000 Sim audio moon DAC after getting it so don't judge by price. I'd put money on it killing a Lampi GG in a blind test.

Even if the PCB just sits as is on your desktop it will still get the job done and cost even less.

http://mirand-audio.dk/?product=ak4...ort-discrete-diffse-shield-pcm-filter-setting


The free downloads from 2L are a great example of DSD from a native DxD source.


http://www.2l.no/hires/index.html?

 

[NorthSky]

♦ http://www.psaudio.com/forum/directstream-all-about-it/why-dsd-is-a-terrible-idea/

 

[Mivera]

♦ http://www.psaudio.com/forum/directstream-all-about-it/why-dsd-is-a-terrible-idea/

I agree with Paul in that thread. You will usually find manufacturers who don't make products compatible, won't try to convince people that their competitors products are superior. And he was a DSD skeptic once his self!

But it's the same with everything. You will never find a tube amp manufacturer that will tell you to go with class D. And you will never be told a a BMW dealership that there's better cars across the street at the Mercedes dealership.

 

[NorthSky]

any cd player bob, its just mastered in DSD but will be PCM through your CD player.

It's interesting Tom because @ AVSForum they all believe that very few players can play them; one or two from Pioneer, and couple from Sony.
All my SACD players don't mention that format. That's why I asked here, in case someone knows for sure, because I am still confused on those DSD discs from overseas, and if my Oppo can play them, or my Sony SACD players. It seems not, but I need proof, and that proof I don't have yet.
All I got so far are words from here and there, plus the ones from brochures. In this particular instance here, to me that represents a flying cat with propellers up his derriere.

That's all I need; someone with one of them discs, and what player he uses to play it.
I already know than a hybrid SACD will play in any CD, DVD, BR player. ...It's CD layer, even with DSD processing; it is still PCM 16/44.1
But those DSD + CD discs I just don't know what they are, and what kind of player can play them.
Yes, I suspect any player, but it seems that many others disagree. ...Looks like they're from China, so a player made in China (Sony, Pioneer, Oppo, Denon, ...) should be able to play them, no?

This player mentioned that particular format: http://www.pioneer-audiovisual.eu/eu/node/191

Playback Media & Formats

• SACD/CD/CD-R/CD-RW/DVD-R*/DVD-RW*
• DSD Disc
• MP3/WMA/MPEG-4 AAC
• iPod/iPhone/iPad Digital Transmission
• Front US B Input for Memory Audio

I just don't know about ↑ the relevance of that though; but it is distinctively written.

• That confusing thread: http://www.avsforum.com/forum/153-c...at-good-dsd-sacd-player-less-than-1500-a.html

 

[Thomas savage]

It's interesting Tom because @ AVSForum they all believe that very few players can play them; one or two from Pioneer, and couple from Sony.
All my SACD players don't mention that format. That's why I asked here, in case someone knows for sure, because I am still confused on those DSD discs from oversea, and if my Oppo can play them, or my Sony SACD players. It seems not, but I need proof, and that proof I don't have yet.
All I got so far are words from here and there, plus the ones from brochures. In this particular instance here, to me that represents a flying cat with propellers up his derriere.

That's all I need; someone with one of them discs, and what player he uses to play it.
I already know than a hybrid SACD will play in any CD, DVD, BR player. ...It's CD layer, even with DSD processing; it is still PCM 16/44.1
But those DSD + CD discs I just don't know what they are, and what kind of player can play them.
Yes, I suspect any player, but it seems that many others disagree. ...Looks like they're from China, so a player made in China (Sony, Pioneer, Oppo, Denon, ...) should be able to play them, no?

This player mentioned that particular format: http://www.pioneer-audiovisual.eu/eu/node/191
I just don't know about the relevance of that though.

• That confusing thread: http://www.avsforum.com/forum/153-c...at-good-dsd-sacd-player-less-than-1500-a.html

DSD-CD (CD-DA)[edit]
See also: CD-DA
While having a different name, DSD-CD is actually the same format as CD-DA. The difference from the standard version of CD is that the sound derives from a DSD master. Other audio CDs, even those derived from DSD masters, are rarely marketed as DSD-CD. A DSD-CD however does not achieve the same sound resolution as SACD because the high-sample rate, low-resolution DSD sound must be converted to 44.1 kHz, 16-bit PCM to comply with the Red Book audio CD standard. DSD-CDs are fully compatible with CD.

 

[Thomas savage]

http://www.grimmaudio.com/site/assets/files/1088/dsd_myth.pdf

 

[Mivera]

http://www.grimmaudio.com/site/assets/files/1088/dsd_myth.pdf

The problem with that article is it leaves out how the DSD is handled once in the DAC. That combined with the fact they are mainly comparing single rate DSD with PCM. Once you get up to quad there's no comparison.

This is the key paragraph:

"The problem is that the format alone does not tell the whole story. Pure, original, ‘native’ DSD using truly 1-bit dsd converters for A-to-D AND D-to-A can sound stunning. If the converters are done right technically of course (implementation, layout, components, etc), and if the subsequent amplication isn’t bothered by the relatively high levels of high- frequency noise specimen to DSD."

http://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/1-bit-dsd-dac-implementations.129/