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DSD genuine improvement or marketing tool?

Blumlein 88

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I'm just talking about measurement wise. If straight measurements were compared, the phone would probably win.

What measurements do you look for to tell you which DAC is the best?

I don't know if the phone would win or not. My unit has IMD and THD below .002% even if driving 600 ohm loads while putting out a few volts. It has at or a touch below -110db noise floors. Response is dead flat except for a touch (.15 db) off at the very top, and about that much below 10 hz. Reconstruction filters are well enough done aliasing like effects don't show up. It isn't SOTA, it also isn't bad. Doing room correction is a big, big plus well beyond my DAC vs the best I have heard. Now your general basic measures aren't a tell all though they tell quite a bit. One can sometimes learn more with other tests.

Is the LG G5 better than this, I don't know, if it were I would have no problems using it instead. Might wish to move up to something more ergonomic for music playback.

Now what would convince you a DAC is capable of enough fidelity that no further improvement is possible? I do mean fidelity to source not just what sounds good leaning toward someone's preferences.

I can tell you current modest AD and DA gear is not far from total transparency. There isn't a 50% improvement left possible. There isn't likely a 10% improvement possible. I think we are down to a few percent left to get in fidelity at most. How will you know when you achieve it? If we achieve total audible transparency and do so for cheap, then no amount of money can improve upon it. What is left at that point is learning how to process for preferences which don't always correlate with transparency, accuracy or fidelity. There is a big market for peddling preference as performance.

DSD would appear to be able to be a fine high fidelity format. I don't see what its benefits are vs well performing PCM. It has many disadvantages. One is on the recording end. You cannot edit it or process it. With bad processing prevalent that may not be a bad thing always. What happens in some uses is we get analog based processing and mixing as music is done then the mix recorded with DSD. Or people do editing with requires a PCM step in the middle. DSD simply isn't easy to work with, and I don't see the big advantage.

In terms of fidelity you have many different opinions. Some good experienced people on the recording end tell us 192/24 gets the mic feeds fully. Others say we need 384 khz to get it. Yet others have been saying 768 will do it. How is this being decided? Sighted uncontrolled listening? Not good enough for me. We also have quite believable credible people saying there is nothing gained going past 96 khz. Maybe I have lousy hearing, but well done 48 khz doesn't leave lots on the table. There are no revolutions in reproduced sound quality pursuing these ever increasing sample rates or things like DSD. What is being missed simply isn't enough for that to occur. Revolutions in marketing will work I suppose. We already have inexpensive portable playback with 384 khz capability.

So back to the regularly scheduled marketing spin, what makes DSD so good, how do you know that, and do you have anything other than I heard it and it is so?
 

Blumlein 88

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1: I did match the levels perfectly for the testing.

2: I never set any expectations. Nobody even had a clue what they were listening for, or what any of the format resolutions were

3: I've tried the test with more than 8-10 people. I've did this demo to almost everyone who's listened to my system since. But the difference is so profound, and blind test results were so conclusive, that I'm beyond that phase now. That was last years news.

Do you really think so many people rave about Hqplayer because of the clunky GUI?

How did you match levels, that tends to be a pesky chore with DSD.
 

JoeWhip

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Having just been involved in a recording project, the 24/96 capture sounded the same as the mic feed through a pair of M2s.
 

Blumlein 88

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Having just been involved in a recording project, the 24/96 capture sounded the same as the mic feed through a pair of M2s.

Yep, so now what can DSD or 768 khz do for you? If they sound different, then they aren't accurate. If they sound the same, what reason do you have to bother with them?
 

Mivera

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How did you match levels, that tends to be a pesky chore with DSD.

With HQplayer you can set it internally to do it. With the Mirus I just turned up the volume 6db. Jussi told me there was 6db difference and I measured the level with Clio and my mic-01 to confirm the levels were the same.
 

Mivera

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I don't know if the phone would win or not. My unit has IMD and THD below .002% even if driving 600 ohm loads while putting out a few volts. It has at or a touch below -110db noise floors. Response is dead flat except for a touch (.15 db) off at the very top, and about that much below 10 hz. Reconstruction filters are well enough done aliasing like effects don't show up. It isn't SOTA, it also isn't bad. Doing room correction is a big, big plus well beyond my DAC vs the best I have heard. Now your general basic measures aren't a tell all though they tell quite a bit. One can sometimes learn more with other tests.

Is the LG G5 better than this, I don't know, if it were I would have no problems using it instead. Might wish to move up to something more ergonomic for music playback.

Now what would convince you a DAC is capable of enough fidelity that no further improvement is possible? I do mean fidelity to source not just what sounds good leaning toward someone's preferences.

I can tell you current modest AD and DA gear is not far from total transparency. There isn't a 50% improvement left possible. There isn't likely a 10% improvement possible. I think we are down to a few percent left to get in fidelity at most. How will you know when you achieve it? If we achieve total audible transparency and do so for cheap, then no amount of money can improve upon it. What is left at that point is learning how to process for preferences which don't always correlate with transparency, accuracy or fidelity. There is a big market for peddling preference as performance.

DSD would appear to be able to be a fine high fidelity format. I don't see what its benefits are vs well performing PCM. It has many disadvantages. One is on the recording end. You cannot edit it or process it. With bad processing prevalent that may not be a bad thing always. What happens in some uses is we get analog based processing and mixing as music is done then the mix recorded with DSD. Or people do editing with requires a PCM step in the middle. DSD simply isn't easy to work with, and I don't see the big advantage.

In terms of fidelity you have many different opinions. Some good experienced people on the recording end tell us 192/24 gets the mic feeds fully. Others say we need 384 khz to get it. Yet others have been saying 768 will do it. How is this being decided? Sighted uncontrolled listening? Not good enough for me. We also have quite believable credible people saying there is nothing gained going past 96 khz. Maybe I have lousy hearing, but well done 48 khz doesn't leave lots on the table. There are no revolutions in reproduced sound quality pursuing these ever increasing sample rates or things like DSD. What is being missed simply isn't enough for that to occur. Revolutions in marketing will work I suppose. We already have inexpensive portable playback with 384 khz capability.

So back to the regularly scheduled marketing spin, what makes DSD so good, how do you know that, and do you have anything other than I heard it and it is so?

Like I mentioned before, what I care about most in a DAC is PCM performance. As 99.9% of all available digital music is in PCM.
 

JoeWhip

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I was producing the talent not engineering. From my experiences at a few recording sessions, I have found 24/96 PCM to perfectly capture the mic feed. Frankly 24/48 comes darn close too. I have no experience with a recording session using DSD. Maybe Jared Sacks will invite me to his next one in London. :) One can always hope! This whole hobby is about preferences. Unless you are involved in engineering a project, how does one know what the recording sounds like? You may prefer DSD or PCM on YOUR system, depending on how colored it is or how you like your music to sound or whatever. Cheers!
 

NorthSky

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Neil Young likes analog LPs and Pono.
Bob Stuart likes MLP @ 20/88.2
Bruce B likes ...
Gary K likes ...
Peter B likes ...
Robert C likes ... everything that sounds good and complete.
 
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Mivera

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Neil Young likes analog LPs and Pono.
Bob Stuart likes MLP @ 20/88.2
BruceB likes ....

Bob Stuart likes to be able to use the DSP which his whole paradigm relies on to function.
 

NorthSky

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Thank you Joe; I carefully choose them for what they represent most deeply in my life.
Here a pair of hands that worked hard to reforest the forests, paint, draw, sculpt, write, dance and play music.

I also like women, wisdom, peace and immortality.
 

Mivera

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Mivera

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Mivera

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I wonder if old Yuri has caught up to Jussi yet? Might have to test drive his software again. But really no point if a guy has a server with Hqplayer setup. The average quad DSD album takes up over 8gb. Besides pretty hard to offline convert Tidal where the upsampling helps the most.

But yes he's saying exactly what I was saying all along in this thread. The hardware matters.
 

Mivera

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Yuri seems to be a real nice/smart guy.

Yes he's a nice guy. If you look on computer audiophile you'll see Jussi has been coaching him along for years. His algorithm's were a bit too dull for my tastes as of June 2015. I should see where he's at theses days. It was his software that was used in my blind testing for 1 version of the 3 tracks.
 
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