As long as the app the streamer uses simply moves the bits which they should and everything else being equal I doubt anyone can tell a difference with the understanding of proper listening setup.
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Does Streamer Matter when using External DAC?
- Thread starter Mehdiem
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- dac digital audio streamer
“Broken” might be the right term. Although some filter options seem to be audible, mostly for younger listeners.
Even if perfectly matched - if you listen knowing which one is playing you'll probebly hear a difference. That difference won't be in the sound waves, it will be in the brain. That is how we are wired. What we perceive is as much about what the brain predicts, as what is actually sensed.
I use a HTPC (homebuilt) for streaming both movies and music. For movies both picture and sound is transferred over HDMI (Atmos etc)
For music and 2 channel listening,.. only picture is transferred over HDMI to the DAC / Processor and the 2 channel music is transferred over USB.
Normal computer motherboard USB's are known to not be the best for Hi End listening. (switching power supply and circuits all over the MOBO)
So everybody here who states that a digital music signal is what it is.. and as long as it arrives to the DAC its the same...
Have you ever tried a high quality USB card with a external high quality Linear power supply....
I was shocked by the difference... Even my wife and friends can tell me what sounds best without even understanding what i'm doing (they are not into electronics or audio like me),.. The only thing I have told them is... im gonna change something... can you tell me what sounds best..
There is 110% for sure... a difference in USB "digital" music signals dependig on what source you have. All my gear is high end, except my "normal" motherboard on my HTPC.
Upgrading to a external USB card "at the source" changed my system from something I though sounded good and acceptable... to something that sounds... well... it almost cant compare.
I'm not gonna write which USB card I'm using... as everybody will think I'm paid to write it.
Until you have tried this... I would say.. "you do not know what you don't know" ...regarding why a high end USB card sounds so much better than MOBO...
Clean LPS powered OXCO USB card vs switching powered MOBO USB... is two different worlds of SQ in my high-end system. Its was game changer and an eye opener... And I cannot be without it now.
I have read forums on forums... people stating "digital is digital".... well... I guess that is true... but the "a digital sound signal" is NOT the same depending on what type of source it comes from.. there is more to it than 1's and 0's...
If you are happy with you system, and don't want to spend more money... that is fine.. But for sure... there is ways to dramatically improve SQ... even in the early "USB" stage before it arrived at the DAC.
Before commenting anything about "this is what my brain thinks" I encourage you to try it... and get someone else you know, who don't understand this to listen while you A/B test it. (takes 3 sec to swap USB from MOBO into the high end USB card on the same computer)
Hell... you can even go on one of the many youtube reviews and hear the difference on youtube from whatever MIC they used..
Rgs,
For music and 2 channel listening,.. only picture is transferred over HDMI to the DAC / Processor and the 2 channel music is transferred over USB.
Normal computer motherboard USB's are known to not be the best for Hi End listening. (switching power supply and circuits all over the MOBO)
So everybody here who states that a digital music signal is what it is.. and as long as it arrives to the DAC its the same...
Have you ever tried a high quality USB card with a external high quality Linear power supply....
I was shocked by the difference... Even my wife and friends can tell me what sounds best without even understanding what i'm doing (they are not into electronics or audio like me),.. The only thing I have told them is... im gonna change something... can you tell me what sounds best..
There is 110% for sure... a difference in USB "digital" music signals dependig on what source you have. All my gear is high end, except my "normal" motherboard on my HTPC.
Upgrading to a external USB card "at the source" changed my system from something I though sounded good and acceptable... to something that sounds... well... it almost cant compare.
I'm not gonna write which USB card I'm using... as everybody will think I'm paid to write it.
Until you have tried this... I would say.. "you do not know what you don't know" ...regarding why a high end USB card sounds so much better than MOBO...
Clean LPS powered OXCO USB card vs switching powered MOBO USB... is two different worlds of SQ in my high-end system. Its was game changer and an eye opener... And I cannot be without it now.
I have read forums on forums... people stating "digital is digital".... well... I guess that is true... but the "a digital sound signal" is NOT the same depending on what type of source it comes from.. there is more to it than 1's and 0's...
If you are happy with you system, and don't want to spend more money... that is fine.. But for sure... there is ways to dramatically improve SQ... even in the early "USB" stage before it arrived at the DAC.
Before commenting anything about "this is what my brain thinks" I encourage you to try it... and get someone else you know, who don't understand this to listen while you A/B test it. (takes 3 sec to swap USB from MOBO into the high end USB card on the same computer)
Hell... you can even go on one of the many youtube reviews and hear the difference on youtube from whatever MIC they used..
Rgs,
Last edited:
Well if your wife and friends can tell…
Keith
Keith
If the proof is out there, prove it. Do it level-matched, blinded, and with a witness. I don't doubt you heard a difference, I suspect there even may have been an *audible* difference, although in that case I'm sure we could easily measure and pinpoint the issue. But once you control for the obvious (levels, defects/artifacts), most claims like this don't stand up to scientific scrutiny. That's just the way it is until someone starts to provide some evidence otherwise.
oleg87
Addicted to Fun and Learning
Yet another one of these long-dormant single-post troll accounts?
haha..
Here we go... Exactly why I though its best to just keep it to my self and not write anything here about this.
I am very aware of snake oil and try to avoid it.
Yes I am a troll... I am trying to make you send money to any company that makes a product like this....
I do not have any way to measure, and got 3 kids. Don't have time to prove anything here that is time consuming.
For those who doubt it... just forget you read it
For others... who has the money and is willing to spend 2000+ on a high end USB card with a good LPS... you might just be surprised.
I could have sent it back withing 2 weeks... it stayed.. was a no-brainer
Im new to this forum by the way... have read alot for years.. but dont think I have ever commented anything.
Here we go... Exactly why I though its best to just keep it to my self and not write anything here about this.
I am very aware of snake oil and try to avoid it.
Yes I am a troll... I am trying to make you send money to any company that makes a product like this....
I do not have any way to measure, and got 3 kids. Don't have time to prove anything here that is time consuming.
For those who doubt it... just forget you read it
For others... who has the money and is willing to spend 2000+ on a high end USB card with a good LPS... you might just be surprised.
I could have sent it back withing 2 weeks... it stayed.. was a no-brainer
Im new to this forum by the way... have read alot for years.. but dont think I have ever commented anything.
By the way.. there was a comment eariler on this thread "stating..." stop looking at reviews and look at measurements.
For signals yes..
But for what's actually coming out of the speakers itself... I would say... stop looking at measurements... and listen. Forget all about measurements and listen...
For signals yes..
But for what's actually coming out of the speakers itself... I would say... stop looking at measurements... and listen. Forget all about measurements and listen...
Indeedwas a no-brainer
Are they listening from the kitchen?
Let's be a little nicer, especially to newcomers
Hello you all. While I consider our forum to be more friendly than many, it seems that we are quite harsh on new members who post things that go against our consensus view. There is no reason to pound on people hard when they say this and that sounds good to them. Let them have some time here...
audiosciencereview.com
I promise you - were we to try it, we would not be even slightly surprised.
But for what's actually coming out of the speakers itself... I would say... stop looking at measurements... and listen. Forget all about measurements and listen...
Trouble is - one of the aspects of being human is having a brain that acts as a prediction machine. All those optical illusions you’ve seen, or the auditory illusions you've heard : They're the result of your brain making stuff up from imperfect senses bringing in imperfect information.
See that 3D world all around you as you look around? That perception exists only in your brain. It is built from the ground up based on two tiny blurry and with a blind spot right in the middle images projected onto your retina. I think it is almost miraculous how the brain manages to create that perception for you.
Now without moving your head, picture the stuff that is behind you. You can actually build that into your perception of the world even when not looking at it. It is not coming from any of your senses - it is simply a prediction from your brain based on what you've seen in the past.
Ever been walking down a path in woodland and seen a person up ahead that turns into (e.g.) a tree stump when you get closer - that's your brain predicting.
Ever heard someone say something, and then they deny they've even opened their mouth - brain prediction.
This is happening all the time. Our brain is continuously making pretty good predictions based on imperfect information - we couldn't function if it didn't. Sometimes though it gets the predictions wrong. And it is multi-sensory. It can alter sound based on what you see, or change what you see based on what you hear. Or how we feel, or what we've imbibed, or how comfortable we are, or if we are in unfamiliar surroundings.
It is well known that we will hear differences between audio devices even when there is no difference in the sound reaching our ears. We've all experienced it. In fact we all experience it all the time. Ever sat down to listen to music to find your system doesn't impress you the way it normally does - or on this day it suddenly sounds sublime. The system hasn't changed, you have : your perceptions have.
Your subjective listening can be evidence, but it has to be controlled (eg accurately level matched) and blind (so that you don't know what device is playing), and you have to be able to consistently detect the difference (at least 9 out of 10 times).
Without that level of rigour, then your subjective experience is nothing more than anecdote and tells us nothing about what actual physical differences there may (or may not) have been between your two USB interfaces. Just as our subjective experience would be equally unconvincing if we were to accept your somewhat pointless challenge.
@amirm recently reviewed the next best thing (arguably this should be even better because it’s out of the noisy PC case):
Innuos Phoenix USB Reclocker Review
This is a review, detailed measurements, and listening tests of Innuos PhoenixUSB Reclocker. It is on kind loan from a member and costs US $4,349 (not a typo). The front panel is quite attractive and gives the impression of a high-end product. Alas, I would have expected to see an indicator...
www.audiosciencereview.com
Guess what: it did absolutely nothing!
@amirm recently reviewed the next best thing (arguably this should be even better because it’s out of the noisy PC case):
Innuos Phoenix USB Reclocker Review
This is a review, detailed measurements, and listening tests of Innuos PhoenixUSB Reclocker. It is on kind loan from a member and costs US $4,349 (not a typo). The front panel is quite attractive and gives the impression of a high-end product. Alas, I would have expected to see an indicator...
Guess what: it did absolutely nothing!
Interesting.
But did he actually listen to the music itself and not only measure the signal pre-DAC?
I don't know if this external reclocker works different to putting a PCIe card directly into the motherboard at the source itself.
But... what is stated from this test then... is that we can all just buy the cheapest of the cheapest source for 10$ or so... as long as it sends out a USB music signal... because the signal from the source does not matter ? Maybe that changes the perspective.
Maybe my ears are lying then... and the non-tech/non- audiophole persons I have presented this to is hearing changes that does not exist. If that is the case... Im still happy... because it sounds like listening to a analog source and not digital any longer... the sound is smoother and less ..."thin or harsh maybe"....
Im not smart enough to explain it
Pretty much - and they almost do. I have a Raspberry pi zero 2 W that I've set up as a streamer. I can be 100% confident - if I am sending USB to an external DAC that it will sound identical to any streamer at any price sending via USB to the same DAC. It costs about £37 with case, PSU, usb cable and memory card.
The ONLY way a correctly functioning streamer with an external DAC can have an impact on the sound is (as you have hinted at above) via ground noise. However:
1 - That is easily detectable. Noise is noise. EIther you can hear it as noise (hum, hiss, squeaks/beeps etc) or you can't. If you can't it is not impacting the sound.
2 - Ground noise is trivially eliminated via USB isolation, or by using optical interface to the DAC, or by using balanced interconnect from DAC to Amp.
Read my post above. Just like everyone else's, they are. (or at least, your brain is)
Thanks for reigniting my interest, just purchased this book on the subject.
And I'm now sad that you seem to have deleted that post you made about the prediction machine book you ordered.
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