Do tubes do anything well in circuits?

[rdenney]

I've said this before, but I think it's noteworthy.

The notion that solid state can be bought by users at a lower price is just a matter of how this market has been developed. Prices are based on the market, not on costs.

In the ham radio world, the typical solid-state high-frequency amplifier costs twice what the same power costs using vacuum tubes. Example: Ameritron ALS-600, a solid-state 600-watt amp: $2200 street price. The same company's 600-watt AL-811, which uses three 811A triode vacuum tubes, is exactly half that. The solid-state design provides some nice features--broad-banded output that does not have to be tuned to the load is one of them--but otherwise the performance is similar.

Are manufacturer costs higher with vacuum tubes? I'm not so sure, but I have no expertise on that topic. But the only requirement on production cost is that it be less than sales price by a sufficient margin to pay the owners for their time.

Rick "thinking audio tube amps are expensive because only audiophiles willing to pay more buy them" Denney

 

[SIY]

At what specific point/value would you regard HV swing (slew rate) shifting from "non-auditory" to clearly audible or identifiably audible? You've made the claim, what evidence do you have?

HV swing is not the same as slew rate. Some applications require high output voltages- e.g. studios at 24 dBV levels. Some custom mike and preamps swing high voltages to minimize noise pickup. And there’s electrostatics…

 

[Grumpish]

With my objective hat on - no tubes can't do anything better, or even as well as, solid state in audio circuits. With my subjective hat on - I don't care, I like the way tubes sound in a well designed circuit.

 

[dfuller]

Triodes are much more linear sans feedback. In fact they can get away with substantially less than equivalent transistor designs. But, that's not really relevant, not when transistors have so much more gain available.

 

[thefsb]

This needs to be put to rest. in Audio there is nothing that tubes do better than SS. Nothing.
Any sound effect that can be done with tube can replicated and then more , with SS and software. One could debate of the performance vs cost of software effects box.
To repeat: In Audio Reproduction, there is no need for Tubes today.

If the objective is to efficiently, cost effectively amplify audio signals, this is likely true. But that's a very narrow view.

If the objective is to sell stuff then sell whatever sells.

I'm starting to get annoyed by the situation with vinyl. I wanted to buy the Bruno S. album released 2014 by Parte. It's only been released on vinyl. Available from Forced Exposure for $31 plus shipping (even though they are just up the road). Nice package, artwork and booklet but the vinyl is garbage. It's 180 gram (something vinyl junkies like) with a hole that's far too big and crummy pressing with surface noise clearly audible in quiet parts.

But it sells. There's lots of this going on. People seem to want it.

What is the objective? An amp or an LP is a consumer product in a consumer economy.

 

[thefsb]

With my objective hat on - no tubes can't do anything better, or even as well as, solid state in audio circuits. With my subjective hat on - I don't care, I like the way tubes sound in a well designed circuit.

This is actually a very interesting statement. This is true audiophillia. Listening to the sound of tubes. Listening to equipment. It's as though the program material were irrelevant.

And, I would think, the more characteristic the amp itself is, the more its contributes to the experience, the more important the program material gets. Certainly in music production and recording, the engineer carefully chooses equipment according to the task.

 

[FrantzM]

If the objective is to efficiently, cost effectively amplify audio signals, this is likely true. But that's a very narrow view.

If the objective is to sell stuff then sell whatever sells.

I'm starting to get annoyed by the situation with vinyl. I wanted to buy the Bruno S. album released 2014 by Parte. It's only been released on vinyl. Available from Forced Exposure for $31 plus shipping (even though they are just up the road). Nice package, artwork and booklet but the vinyl is garbage. It's 180 gram (something vinyl junkies like) with a hole that's far too big and crummy pressing with surface noise clearly audible in quiet parts.

But it sells. There's lots of this going on. People seem to want it.

What is the objective? An amp or an LP is a consumer product in a consumer economy.

We're here to buy , not to sell. We need the best performance within a budget , or so I would think. For objective performantes, tubes are not the solution, regardless of budget. I could safely add Vinyl to that. Now... if the goal is to be pleased ... one could buy an AC power Cord for $34,000 and a TT for $575,000 and ... I am not sure we are debating these, here on ASR.

 

[rdenney]

We're here to buy , not to sell. We need the best performance within a budget , or so I would think. For objective performantes, tubes are not the solution, regardless of budget. I could safely add Vinyl to that. Now... if the goal is to be pleased ... one could buy an AC power Cord for $34,000 and a TT for $575,000 and ... I am not sure we are debating these, here on ASR.

A fair point. Restated: What do tubes do well in circuits? They increase the quality of the owner experience for owners susceptible to such influences, and that enhances the only circuit that matters: The path of dollars from the buyer's wallet to the seller's top line.

That is not to say that owner experience does not count.

Rick "not susceptible to that pull" Denney

 

[Rip City Dave]

In surfing, the tube is considered the apotheosis.

 

[Cbdb2]

Hi

This needs to be put to rest. in Audio there is nothing that tubes do better than SS. Nothing.
Any sound effect that can be done with tube can replicated and then more , with SS and software. One could debate of the performance vs cost of software effects box.
To repeat: In Audio Reproduction, there is no need for Tubes today.

Nothing sounds like tubes in guitar amps. The software is getting closer but its still not there.

 

[xaviescacs]

Hi

This needs to be put to rest. in Audio there is nothing that tubes do better than SS. Nothing.
Any sound effect that can be done with tube can replicated and then more , with SS and software. One could debate of the performance vs cost of software effects box.
To repeat: In Audio Reproduction, there is no need for Tubes today.

That might be theoreticaly true, no doubt, but you an amp and you immediately get the sound of that amp (whatever that means), plug and play. With software isn't the same, not even close, at least for the majority of consumers.

 

[weasels]

Tubes sound great in guitar amplifiers when pushed to clip with high gain

 

[MaxBuck]

Tubes are to audio what automatic self-winding mechanisms are to timepieces.

 

[egellings]

Slew rate requirement is often overrated for audio amplifiers. There is a minimum that allows response out to 20kHz, at some given maximum output voltage swing level, but any sharper edge on a square wave beyond that is needless. We don't need audio bandwidth to extend to a quarter MHz.

 

[egellings]

As for tubes: if they are your cup f tea, then enjoy; if not, pass them by.

 

[dfuller]

Nothing sounds like tubes in guitar amps. The software is getting closer but its still not there.

Guitar amps are an unrelated thing to high fidelity. They're deliberately designed to distort.

 

[KSTR]

Guitar amps are an unrelated thing to high fidelity. They're deliberately designed to distort.

Ironically, many of the early iconic tube guitar amps were basically HiFi designs (with strong global feedback around the output stage) with an slightly adapted input stage and tone controls, and often have been advertised as "low distortion".
Without having a master volume, these amps usually clip their output (or output driver) stage first and the distortion is far from smooth and gradual, rather it kicks in abruptly and has hard edges with a sticky recovery from the feedback loop going open.

 

[JohnYang1997]

Nothing sounds like tubes in guitar amps. The software is getting closer but its still not there.

NeuralDSP Quad Cortex

 

[dfuller]

Ironically, many of the early iconic tube guitar amps were basically HiFi designs (with strong global feedback around the output stage) with an slightly adapted input stage and tone controls, and often have been advertised as "low distortion".
Without having a master volume, these amps usually clip their output (or output driver) stage first and the distortion is far from smooth and gradual, rather it kicks in abruptly and has hard edges with a sticky recovery from the feedback loop going open.

Some were, yeah - some weren't! One of the most iconic early amps is the 5E3 deluxe, which has no global feedback at all, and yet others were like the AB763 designs which really are high fidelity designs with a passive tonestack and reverb/tremolo tacked on.

 

[JSmith]

Even I retired our 1983 vintage Toshiba CRT TV... albeit just a couple of months ago.

I was still running a HD widescreen CRT up until 5 years ago and still have a few CRT monitors put aside just in case... I do prefer to watch my tubes and not listen to them though. I suppose CRT's can have that high pitched whine... which is not noticeable with age and a glass of wine.



JSmith