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Do not know anything I can improve for my AVR set

whazzup

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The wharfedale d320 looks competent in the measurements here:

Have you used the AccuEQ calibration in your AVR? Sub integration? Or any form of room calibration?

If not, I'll suggest spending time and money there first instead of new AVR or speakers. With a calibration mic and some time, you'll learn what really matters. THEN buying new components will make sense, because you now know why you're spending the money.
 
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cheungliu

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Here you have measurement comparisons of d320 and Genelec 8320 . The 8020 measure the same but havent got GLM .

This measurements show only a few things - the frequency response and directivity . However, a good active application has big advantages in the bass region of the music , soundwise. Much bigger than the measurements shows.
View attachment 195874View attachment 195875
Thanks for your information.
One information is that my current AVR do not have an Pre-out. Hence it would be very difficult to used the power Genelec 8320A at all.
 
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cheungliu

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There is DA on streaming services in form of DD+. If you put your AVR into direct mode, it'll bypass the DA metadata even if its a BD. You would want it in any other mode than Direct and Multi Stereo for correct playback of DA content.

For the bare minimum for height bookshelf speakers, you would want the same brand as your other speakers. If possible the same series as your other speakers.
Yes I have turned my Dolby Surround for my AVR. Actually my AVR support DA. But since my AVR is not HDMI 2.1 passthrough, hence DA would be passthrough as DD+.
I do not have a BD rom to test my DA.
 

Aerith Gainsborough

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I am planning if there is anyway for improvement mainly watching movie/game/music. Below is my question
6. Overall is there any other improvments that I can get for my set?
Before you senselessly rush out and want to "improve" the situation by blindly buying stuff hyped up by reviews, I would urge you to assess what exactly you dislike in your current system.

- is there core functionality you need? (more channels, room correction, support for newer A/V standards)
- do you need more volume? (amp power)
- do you want more extension/power in the low end (bigger subwoofer)
- do you want more clarity/precision (room treatment/corrective DSP/more resolving main speakers)

In such a tiny space (2.5m squared, if I interpret your diagrams correctly), I am not sure whether plastering speakers all over it, trying to realize an atmos setup would even make sense at all.
Sometimes, less is more.
 
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cheungliu

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The wharfedale d320 looks competent in the measurements here:

Have you used the AccuEQ calibration in your AVR? Sub integration? Or any form of room calibration?

If not, I'll suggest spending time and money there first instead of new AVR or speakers. With a calibration mic and some time, you'll learn what really matters. THEN buying new components will make sense, because you now know why you're spending the money.
Yes I tried for the AccuEQ, I have my sub. For the room calibration how can I do for that?
 
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cheungliu

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Before you senselessly rush out and want to "improve" the situation by blindly buying stuff hyped up by reviews, I would urge you to assess what exactly you dislike in your current system.

- is there core functionality you need? (more channels, room correction, support for newer A/V standards)
- do you need more volume? (amp power)
- do you want more extension/power in the low end (bigger subwoofer)
- do you want more clarity/precision (room treatment/corrective DSP/more resolving main speakers)

In such a tiny space (2.5m squared, if I interpret your diagrams correctly), I am not sure whether plastering speakers all over it, trying to realize an atmos setup would even make sense at all.
Sometimes, less is more.
My area is 7 feet x 8 feet so the area is 5 sq meter

1. I want to have HDMI 2.1 support but I am okey with my 5.1.2 (or basically 5.1 channel at all)
2. with 0-99 scale, I turn it to 55 at most as I will get complain from my wife
3. I think my 12 inch sub would be sufficient, with the full power, the windows frame on my left is shaking too.
4. I just want better more movie feel for my AVR, may be it is better for me to turn it louder =_= (hope not to get complain from my wife)
 

Tangband

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Thanks for your information.
One information is that my current AVR do not have an Pre-out. Hence it would be very difficult to used the power Genelec 8320A at all.
True, you need to sell your onkyo and buy an AVR with 5.1 preouts if you want better sound with active loudspeakers.
And you really should, if you want a real performance peak. Buying better AVR:s and still using the same passive loudspeakers might result in a quality gain of at best 5%. Going active with good gear its like 30% better.:)

A counting example - if entirely transparent sound is the number 1, and worse is less than 1, it can look as this:

Passive alternative:
Good passive loudspeaker ( as your Wharfedale ) : 0,6
AVR with the inbuilt poweramps used: 0,8
Sum : 0,48

Active alternative:
Good active loudspeaker as Genelec 8020d : 0,8
AVR with pre out without poweramps used : 0,9
Sum: 0,72

As you can see , the active aproach gives you a better sound result .;)

Edit : The first most important thing you should do, is to have 3 identical frontspeakers. This have to be fixed before doing anything else. Having a different center channel is probably so bad its better to go 2.1 in that case. You dont get good seamless panning of movie material if the center is different than your L/R . The THX standard says 3 identical front loudspeakers.
 
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Aerith Gainsborough

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My area is 7 feet x 8 feet so the area is 5 sq meter

1. I want to have HDMI 2.1 support but I am okey with my 5.1.2 (or basically 5.1 channel at all)
4. I just want better more movie feel for my AVR, may be it is better for me to turn it louder =_= (hope not to get complain from my wife)
If I understand correctly, you want to listen to Atmos tracks from streaming services with a smart TV, yes? If so, you would indeed need HDMI 2.1 for it's eARC functionality or a HDMI 2.0 device that got eARC via patch. Else, you are stuck with Atmos BluRay only.

Personally, no matter what you do, I would not buy any AVR without pre-outs for all channels. Having pre-outs is really helpful and keeps the door open for using active speakers or a dedicated poweramp down the road.

If you already get noise complaints, more volume will not fix your problem, neither would a more powerful amp. If you live in an apartment, accept the inherent limitation of not getting to enjoy movies at THX reference levels unless you use headphones. It sucks, I know (same situation here) but that's the reality of apartment living.

BTW: I disagree that active speakers are "better" than passive speakers just because they are active. There are great designs and duds in both camps. Active speakers make it somewhat easier but in a tiny space such as yours, an AVR has plenty of power already, as evidenced by your noise complaints.

Edit : The first most important thing you should do, is to have 3 identical frontspeakers. This have to be fixed before doing anything else. Having a different center channel is probably so bad its better to go 2.1 in that case.
That entirely depends on the DSP capabilities of his system and the speaker in question. Especially for movies that is actually NOT as much of a problem as it would be for music, since your brain is less attentive to the sound due to being dazzled by funky action on the screen.

With a good DSP, the speakers can be EQ'd to sound similar enough to where the difference is no longer noticeable. In fact, just because the center is of the same line as the mains, does not mean that they are timbre matched or well designed, as evidenced by Erin's recent video:
 

Tangband

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If I understand correctly, you want to listen to Atmos tracks from streaming services with a smart TV, yes? If so, you would indeed need HDMI 2.1 for it's eARC functionality or a HDMI 2.0 device that got eARC via patch. Else, you are stuck with Atmos BluRay only.

Personally, no matter what you do, I would not buy any AVR without pre-outs for all channels. Having pre-outs is really helpful and keeps the door open for using active speakers or a dedicated poweramp down the road.

If you already get noise complaints, more volume will not fix your problem, neither would a more powerful amp. If you live in an apartment, accept the inherent limitation of not getting to enjoy movies at THX reference levels unless you use headphones. It sucks, I know (same situation here) but that's the reality of apartment living.

BTW: I disagree that active speakers are "better" than passive speakers just because they are active. There are great designs and duds in both camps. Active speakers make it somewhat easier but in a tiny space such as yours, an AVR has plenty of power already, as evidenced by your noise complaints.


That entirely depends on the DSP capabilities of his system and the speaker in question. Especially for movies that is actually NOT as much of a problem as it would be for music, since your brain is less attentive to the sound due to being dazzled by funky action on the screen.

With a good DSP, the speakers can be EQ'd to sound similar enough to where the difference is no longer noticeable. In fact, just because the center is of the same line as the mains, does not mean that they are timbre matched or well designed, as evidenced by Erin's recent video:
I agree on some of the things you are writing, but not all of it. Loudspeakers with different directivity cant be corrected to sound the same in a good way with eq, as Toole and Amirm already has shown .
 

Aerith Gainsborough

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I agree on some of the things you are writing, but not all of it. Loudspeakers with different directivity cant be corrected to sound the same in a good way with eq, as Toole and Amirm already has shown .
Let me be blunt for a moment: The OP stuffed a ton of speakers into an, apparently completely untreated, broom closet.
Do you honestly think that slight directivity differences between center and mains will make or break his setup?

First, he needs to get DSP and measurement capability. Then he can start making educated decisions on where to move next and work down the list from big fish to incremental improvement, depending on finances.

Oh and he needs to define "more movielike" for himself. What is that supposed to be?
Higher SPL? (Doubtful if he already gets complaints)
More precision in positional audio? Clearing up modal bass and reflections might to the trick w/o adding more speakers.
Less distortion? So far he hasn't complained about that, so I don't think he operates his system at the edge of it's capabilities. (tough to do in such a small space in an apartment anyway)

I'm not saying "don't buy new speakers", I'm just saying: address the room first with DSP and (if possible) some light treatments. Then see how the system he has performs and measures. After that, if he still doesn't like the sound, he can shop around more and has already a nice foundation for new, more expensive/resolving speakers.
 

ThatM1key

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Yes I have turned my Dolby Surround for my AVR. Actually my AVR support DA. But since my AVR is not HDMI 2.1 passthrough, hence DA would be passthrough as DD+.
I do not have a BD rom to test my DA.
If you have a 4K player you can download some DA test files. I also heard there is 1080p DA test files.
 

JoeBrooklyn

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Optimize what you have first with room correction. A combination of room treatment to minimize reflections in small room and DSP based room correction AccuEQ (current setup) or something else in the future.

I suggest you start with REW (to help with the room treatment) and AccuEQ (DSP room correction). THEN if you are still dissatisfied, progress to more expensive upgrades to address specific deficiencies, such as getting better room correction (MultiEQ XT32) and/or better performing speakers.

It doesn't sound like you have made the most of what you have yet.
 
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Aerith Gainsborough

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If you have a 4K player you can download some DA test files. I also heard there is 1080p DA test files.
If I understand correctly: The AVR can decode Dolby Atmos but since it is HDMI 2.0 it cannot do Dolby Atmos via eARC.
So a BluRay player feeding it the DA signal is fine and he stated that it worked via Blu Ray.
A smart TV trying to send DA of an e.g.: Netflix stream via ARC won't work since both devices need to be have eARC , the TV and the AVR.
It sucks that TV's don't have HDMI output ports for the lossless transmission of Audio.

Do keep in mind: he still gets the DA steam via Dolby Digital+ but it is no longer lossless audio, since ARC can't handle the bandwidth.
 

ThatM1key

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There is eArc extractors but I heard there flaky devices and thats a dice to get DA working.
 
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cheungliu

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True, you need to sell your onkyo and buy an AVR with 5.1 preouts if you want better sound with active loudspeakers.
And you really should, if you want a real performance peak. Buying better AVR:s and still using the same passive loudspeakers might result in a quality gain of at best 5%. Going active with good gear its like 30% better.:)

A counting example - if entirely transparent sound is the number 1, and worse is less than 1, it can look as this:

Passive alternative:
Good passive loudspeaker ( as your Wharfedale ) : 0,6
AVR with the inbuilt poweramps used: 0,8
Sum : 0,48

Active alternative:
Good active loudspeaker as Genelec 8020d : 0,8
AVR with pre out without poweramps used : 0,9
Sum: 0,72

As you can see , the active aproach gives you a better sound result .;)

Edit : The first most important thing you should do, is to have 3 identical frontspeakers. This have to be fixed before doing anything else. Having a different center channel is probably so bad its better to go 2.1 in that case. You dont get good seamless panning of movie material if the center is different than your L/R . The THX standard says 3 identical front loudspeakers.
Thanks for for your information. I buy this center speaker with the same brand and same series I thought it would be good one also.

Yes I should buy the AVR with the preout, that's why I am considering 3700H/4700H at least.
 
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cheungliu

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If I understand correctly, you want to listen to Atmos tracks from streaming services with a smart TV, yes? If so, you would indeed need HDMI 2.1 for it's eARC functionality or a HDMI 2.0 device that got eARC via patch. Else, you are stuck with Atmos BluRay only.

Personally, no matter what you do, I would not buy any AVR without pre-outs for all channels. Having pre-outs is really helpful and keeps the door open for using active speakers or a dedicated poweramp down the road.

If you already get noise complaints, more volume will not fix your problem, neither would a more powerful amp. If you live in an apartment, accept the inherent limitation of not getting to enjoy movies at THX reference levels unless you use headphones. It sucks, I know (same situation here) but that's the reality of apartment living.

BTW: I disagree that active speakers are "better" than passive speakers just because they are active. There are great designs and duds in both camps. Active speakers make it somewhat easier but in a tiny space such as yours, an AVR has plenty of power already, as evidenced by your noise complaints.


That entirely depends on the DSP capabilities of his system and the speaker in question. Especially for movies that is actually NOT as much of a problem as it would be for music, since your brain is less attentive to the sound due to being dazzled by funky action on the screen.

With a good DSP, the speakers can be EQ'd to sound similar enough to where the difference is no longer noticeable. In fact, just because the center is of the same line as the mains, does not mean that they are timbre matched or well designed, as evidenced by Erin's recent video:
Thanks for your video, I thought the same series center would be matching correct. Seems it is not correct.
 
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cheungliu

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Let me be blunt for a moment: The OP stuffed a ton of speakers into an, apparently completely untreated, broom closet.
Do you honestly think that slight directivity differences between center and mains will make or break his setup?

First, he needs to get DSP and measurement capability. Then he can start making educated decisions on where to move next and work down the list from big fish to incremental improvement, depending on finances.

Oh and he needs to define "more movielike" for himself. What is that supposed to be?
Higher SPL? (Doubtful if he already gets complaints)
More precision in positional audio? Clearing up modal bass and reflections might to the trick w/o adding more speakers.
Less distortion? So far he hasn't complained about that, so I don't think he operates his system at the edge of it's capabilities. (tough to do in such a small space in an apartment anyway)

I'm not saying "don't buy new speakers", I'm just saying: address the room first with DSP and (if possible) some light treatments. Then see how the system he has performs and measures. After that, if he still doesn't like the sound, he can shop around more and has already a nice foundation for new, more expensive/resolving speakers.
"First, he needs to get DSP and measurement capability. Then he can start making educated decisions on where to move next and work down the list from big fish to incremental improvement, depending on finances."

May I know how can I play with the DSP and measurement capability?
 
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cheungliu

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If I understand correctly: The AVR can decode Dolby Atmos but since it is HDMI 2.0 it cannot do Dolby Atmos via eARC.
So a BluRay player feeding it the DA signal is fine and he stated that it worked via Blu Ray.
A smart TV trying to send DA of an e.g.: Netflix stream via ARC won't work since both devices need to be have eARC , the TV and the AVR.
It sucks that TV's don't have HDMI output ports for the lossless transmission of Audio.

Do keep in mind: he still gets the DA steam via Dolby Digital+ but it is no longer lossless audio, since ARC can't handle the bandwidth.
Yes correct, even I SMB some files with Atmos effect I did not get it as I have only HDMI 2.0 AVR only =_=
 
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cheungliu

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Optimize what you have first with room correction. A combination of room treatment to minimize reflections in small room and DSP based room correction AccuEQ (current setup) or something else in the future.

I suggest you start with REW (to help with the room treatment) and AccuEQ (DSP room correction). THEN if you are still dissatisfied, progress to more expensive upgrades to address specific deficiencies, such as getting better room correction (MultiEQ XT32) and/or better performing speakers.

It doesn't sound like you have made the most of what you have yet.
I had calibrated with the AccuEQ in the Onkyo AVR. I did not start with REW or even MultiEQ XT32. How can I play with the later 2 items?
Do I need to change my AVR in this case?
 

Aerith Gainsborough

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May I know how can I play with the DSP and measurement capability?
You need a device to measure. Something like the U-MIK 1 a laptop with HDMI out and the free software REW would be the most beginner friendly setup. If you already have the computer, you only have to buy the measurement mic, around 100€, IIRC.

Then you need a device that is actually capable of 20-20KHz room correction DSP. Not sure if your current Onkyo can do that. No clue how good the "AccuEQ" is. However, once you can measure, you can measure the same signal with and without the EQ, to see what it does.

Just to reiterate: how exactly do you get the Dolby Atmos signal into the AVR?
You mentioned a blu-ray player that works. (Due to HDMI outs, these don't actually need HDMI 2.1 to make Atmos work)

Since your X90J is eARC capable, if you want to use ATMOS streams, the first order of business would indeed be the AVR. The 3700H has eARC capability, so that should work nicely.
 
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