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Do not know anything I can improve for my AVR set

cheungliu

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Hi as the Newbie from Hong Kong (HK). I just know this forum by chance and want to seek your help.
Listening area is very small in HK which is only 8 feets x 7 feets
Also Hong Kong living place is too small, and people only care about earbuds or even soundbar mostly, very tiny market for AVR
For AVR, the price is no way to drop and there is no "Black Friday" concept in my region.

Below is my 5.1.2 setup (or more 5.1 as my AVR does not have HDMI 2.1 that cannot passthrough Atmos, only DD+)
LCR: Wharfedale D320 and D300C
Surrounded speaker: 2 speakers from my Wharfedale DX-2 5.1 set
Front Atoms Speaker: Onkyo SKH-410
Subwoofer: SVS SB-1000 Pro
AVR: Onkyo TX-NR686
TV: Sony X90J
Heavily with PS5 and Movie (Netflix/Disney plus), around 10-20% on music.

I am planning if there is anyway for improvement mainly watching movie/game/music. Below is my question
1. For the AVR, do I need to change to Denon 3700H/4700H, or it is better to upgrade to 6700H instead?
2. As I am heavily playing PS5, given it is already released in 2020 for the 3700/4700/6700, is that I should wait for new AVR next 1-2 yr with more HDMI 2.1 support?
3. I am also thinking to improve the LR speakers to be Wharfedale Diamond 12.2, is that a good upgrade?
4. Any other better LCR speakers that can recommend (KEF?)
5. For my area, I cannot install the Atmos Speaker on the ceiling. I found that my front Atoms speaker is crap. Any other recommendation?
6. Overall is there any other improvments that I can get for my set?

Thank you a lot for your attention.
Sorry for my poor English as it is not my first language.
 
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EEE272

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1. The better room correction xt32 could be nice. But a smaller receiver is definitely enough, as you don't want to use more channels and power wise, I doubt your current receiver is a bottleneck. 6700 and even 4700 seem overkill for your use case.

2. That is at least a reason to upgrade but do you need those extensions in 2.1 ? It also depends on how well your screen deals with it. Personally, I don't care about 2.1.

3-6. If you have not done so already, some room treatment might go a long way. Absorption at the first reflections can improve your sound stage a lot. The other points are difficult to give advice for. I would go for treatment, then (if you care about 2.1 wait a bit), a small AVR but with xt32.

Without hearing your room and without knowing what you don't like about it, this is the best advice I would come up with. :)
 

ThatM1key

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There is a "secret" 3rd option of Dolby Atmos that nobody tells you. Most tell you that its either mount them in the ceiling or bounce the sound. The 3rd option is to use any pair of bookshelf speakers above your main speakers and point them down a little. 3rd option (IMO) is the best because you can use any pair of bookshelf speakers with speaker mounts and it'll be cheaper then buying specific speakers made for Dolby Atmos.



Pict FrontHeight SP Layout X__ZHOBILpnupsqdk.png


I think those Denon's that you l listed are pretty up to date. They support 8K/60hz, 4K/120hz, ALLM, VRR, etc. Perfect match for your TV and PS5.
 

Chrispy

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I'd think more about improved speakers than avr. Altho some features in the Denons could be interesting (and for your setup sounds like 3700 would be fine). Your room and placement for speakers and seating would play a bigger role than the electronics generally.
 
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cheungliu

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I'd think more about improved speakers than avr. Altho some features in the Denons could be interesting (and for your setup sounds like 3700 would be fine). Your room and placement for speakers and seating would play a bigger role than the electronics generally.
Hi below is my setup.
The TV area is 7feet x 8 feet only
Left side is the windows
right side is the open area without wall (the screen had the wall I cannot remove)
The sub is put as the left top corner
I put the TV on top of the TV cabinet
The LCR speakers are put on the TV cabinet. LR speakers are put at my ear level
The 2 surrounds are put besides my sofa (screen left and right bottom corner)

Hope below information is useful for the suggestions on the good speakers.
 

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cheungliu

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There is a "secret" 3rd option of Dolby Atmos that nobody tells you. Most tell you that its either mount them in the ceiling or bounce the sound. The 3rd option is to use any pair of bookshelf speakers above your main speakers and point them down a little. 3rd option (IMO) is the best because you can use any pair of bookshelf speakers with speaker mounts and it'll be cheaper then buying specific speakers made for Dolby Atmos.



View attachment 195554

I think those Denon's that you l listed are pretty up to date. They support 8K/60hz, 4K/120hz, ALLM, VRR, etc. Perfect match for your TV and PS5.
Thanks, is it supported for the my Onkyo or Denon listed of AVR?
 
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cheungliu

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1. The better room correction xt32 could be nice. But a smaller receiver is definitely enough, as you don't want to use more channels and power wise, I doubt your current receiver is a bottleneck. 6700 and even 4700 seem overkill for your use case.

2. That is at least a reason to upgrade but do you need those extensions in 2.1 ? It also depends on how well your screen deals with it. Personally, I don't care about 2.1.

3-6. If you have not done so already, some room treatment might go a long way. Absorption at the first reflections can improve your sound stage a lot. The other points are difficult to give advice for. I would go for treatment, then (if you care about 2.1 wait a bit), a small AVR but with xt32.

Without hearing your room and without knowing what you don't like about it, this is the best advice I would come up with. :)
1. I heard that 4700H play better music for 3700H, with just around 10% price difference I am thinking whether I should go to 4700H?
2. I care for HDMI 2.1, the recent extensions I do not like, so I would like to have AVR with HDMI 2.1 ready instead.
3-6. In general I feel that my speakers are not sound that great, I need to turn to 50+ (absolute scale 0-99) in order to have movie theater effect. However, turning that loud would be a problem in Hong Kong as place is too small and too crowd (my wife even listen to music for 30, sometimes think 40 is too loud already). So would like to ask for suggestions on the good speakers.
 

Chrispy

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Good grief why would the 4700 play music better? Sounds like you've been reading silly reviews.

Why worry about content that barely exists?
 

Tangband

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Hi as the Newbie from Hong Kong (HK). I just know this forum by chance and want to seek your help.
Listening area is very small in HK which is only 8 feets x 7 feets
Also Hong Kong living place is too small, and people only care about earbuds or even soundbar mostly, very tiny market for AVR
For AVR, the price is no way to drop and there is no "Black Friday" concept in my region.

Below is my 5.1.2 setup (or more 5.1 as my AVR does not have HDMI 2.1 that cannot passthrough Atmos, only DD+)
LCR: Wharfedale D320 and D300C
Surrounded speaker: 2 speakers from my Wharfedale DX-2 5.1 set
Front Atoms Speaker: Onkyo SKH-410
Subwoofer: SVS SB-1000 Pro
AVR: Onkyo TX-NR686
TV: Sony X90J
Heavily with PS5 and Movie (Netflix/Disney plus), around 10-20% on music.

I am planning if there is anyway for improvement mainly watching movie/game/music. Below is my question
1. For the AVR, do I need to change to Denon 3700H/4700H, or it is better to upgrade to 6700H instead?
2. As I am heavily playing PS5, given it is already released in 2020 for the 3700/4700/6700, is that I should wait for new AVR next 1-2 yr with more HDMI 2.1 support?
3. I am also thinking to improve the LR speakers to be Wharfedale Diamond 12.2, is that a good upgrade?
4. Any other better LCR speakers that can recommend (KEF?)
5. For my area, I cannot install the Atmos Speaker on the ceiling. I found that my front Atoms speaker is crap. Any other recommendation?
6. Overall is there any other improvments that I can get for my set?

Thank you a lot for your attention.
Sorry for my poor English as it is not my first language.
If you go active you gonna have some real improvements.
My suggestion is that you get an AVR with 7.1/5.1 pre outs. Denon is excellent. Theres also a lot of bargains in the secondhand market to.

For hometheatre its very important to have 3 identical loudspeakers at the front.

My suggestion:

Buy 3 Genelec 8020 for the fronts and 2 Genelec 8010 for the back. Those loudspeakers are way better than what you already have. Use the 5.1 RCA outputs from the new AVR and buy RCA-XLR cables. Keep the subwoofer, its good.
 
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ThatM1key

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Thanks, is it supported for the my Onkyo or Denon listed of AVR?
I looked at the manual for the Denon 3700H, yes it appears to be supported. Seems like you can use 4 height speakers for a 5.1.4
Screenshot 2022-03-27 011659.jpg


I looked at the manual for the Onkyo TX-NR686 Also. It is also supported but you only get 2 height channels, 5.1.2 .
Screenshot 2022-03-27 011456.jpg



With my Sony AVR, I initially went with Sony Dolby Atmos Modules similar to what you currently have. It was terrible, the sound didn't bounce well and worst of all, my Sony AVR refused to play DTS X tracks through them, only Dolby Atmos. I saw that my Sony AVR supported "High Height" speakers, so I bough some brackets and another pair of Polk Audio bookshelf speakers. Night and day difference, it was a lot better of an experience and my Sony AVR outputted both Dolby Atmos and DTS X to them.


If the Denon 4700H costs 10% more than the Denon 3700H, I would go with the Denon 4700H. You can compare both AVRs with the ASR measurements below:

Denon 3700H: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/denon-avr-x3700h-avr-review.15031/

Denon 4700H: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/denon-avr-x4700-avr-review-updated.14493/
 

EEE272

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With 10% difference, I would also get the x4700h of only because it might then keep its price for a bit longer.
1. I heard that 4700H play better music for 3700H, with just around 10% price difference I am thinking whether I should go to 4700H?
2. I care for HDMI 2.1, the recent extensions I do not like, so I would like to have AVR with HDMI 2.1 ready instead.
3-6. In general I feel that my speakers are not sound that great, I need to turn to 50+ (absolute scale 0-99) in order to have movie theater effect. However, turning that loud would be a problem in Hong Kong as place is too small and too crowd (my wife even listen to music for 30, sometimes think 40 is too loud already). So would like to ask for suggestions on the good speakers.
I think no speaker can help delivering movie atmosphere at very low levels.
The only option is to increase the bass with loudness or a house curve.

As a first measure, I would reduce the reflections, which especially in a small room can help - absorbers.

I also think, it could be useful to play with the positioning of the speakers. Are they distant enough from the walls, are the reflections covered, is your listening position centered, do you reach the right angles in your setup? Maybe it would help to make a drawing of your setup. For example, if the speakers or the listening position are against the wall, you cannot expect a good result.

You will be surprised, how much influence the right positing etc has on sound quality.
In such a small room, I even wonder if a center is needed and would try to see how it sounds without. That also solves the question regarding the uniform lcr, although given that the speakers are apparently from the same series, I would not expect too many problems.

Finally, and this is a question of taste, a Yamaha has a lot of dsp effects that can make a soundtrack appear more cinema like and in a well treated room, gives the impression of a larger space. Sticking to Denon, with a 10% difference, it cannot hurt to take the larger receiver - even if it is just to invest into the future. My main advice remains though to try to get the best out of what you currently have first.
 
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cheungliu

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Good grief why would the 4700 play music better? Sounds like you've been reading silly reviews.

Why worry about content that barely exists?
This is what I read, appears that 4700H seems better in music. But I am not sure if it is true or not.

I had doubt check, price of 4700H is 30% over 3700H in my region, sorry for my poor mis-understanding at the first place.
 

Chrispy

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They are very very similar units, slightly different amp section, fairly similar in most other ways. I never liked avforums myself, too much woo going on there.
 
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cheungliu

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If you go active you gonna have some real improvements.
My suggestion is that you get an AVR with 7.1/5.1 pre outs. Denon is excellent. Theres also a lot of bargains in the secondhand market to.

For hometheatre its very important to have 3 identical loudspeakers at the front.

My suggestion:

Buy 3 Genelec 8020 for the fronts and 2 Genelec 8010 for the back. Those loudspeakers are way better than what you already have. Use the 5.1 RCA outputs from the new AVR and buy RCA-XLR cables. Keep the subwoofer, its good.
Thank you for your suggestions. This is my first time to hear Studio speaker, can you help to let me know a bit more how is Genelec been better to my existing Wharfedale speakers?
 
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cheungliu

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They are very very similar units, slightly different amp section, fairly similar in most other ways. I never liked avforums myself, too much woo going on there.
Thanks for your information. I used to go to that 2 forums to read but found there are too many posted there. Seems ASR here is much better and more in-deep analysis in which my region (Hong Kong) totally lack of.
 
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cheungliu

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I looked at the manual for the Denon 3700H, yes it appears to be supported. Seems like you can use 4 height speakers for a 5.1.4
View attachment 195604

I looked at the manual for the Onkyo TX-NR686 Also. It is also supported but you only get 2 height channels, 5.1.2 .
View attachment 195607


With my Sony AVR, I initially went with Sony Dolby Atmos Modules similar to what you currently have. It was terrible, the sound didn't bounce well and worst of all, my Sony AVR refused to play DTS X tracks through them, only Dolby Atmos. I saw that my Sony AVR supported "High Height" speakers, so I bough some brackets and another pair of Polk Audio bookshelf speakers. Night and day difference, it was a lot better of an experience and my Sony AVR outputted both Dolby Atmos and DTS X to them.


If the Denon 4700H costs 10% more than the Denon 3700H, I would go with the Denon 4700H. You can compare both AVRs with the ASR measurements below:

Denon 3700H: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/denon-avr-x3700h-avr-review.15031/

Denon 4700H: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/denon-avr-x4700-avr-review-updated.14493/
It is encouraging to know that you got the Polk Audio bookshelf speakers to play the Dolby Atmos. I wish to have similar set with you too.
Unfortunately my AVR is still mainly DD+ and Atmos only support on BD only (I do not have any BD rom). I might need to have similar setup like you in my next AVR.

Also the price of 4700H is 30% over 3700H in my region, sorry for my poor mis-understanding at the first place.
 
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cheungliu

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With 10% difference, I would also get the x4700h of only because it might then keep its price for a bit longer.

I think no speaker can help delivering movie atmosphere at very low levels.
The only option is to increase the bass with loudness or a house curve.

As a first measure, I would reduce the reflections, which especially in a small room can help - absorbers.

I also think, it could be useful to play with the positioning of the speakers. Are they distant enough from the walls, are the reflections covered, is your listening position centered, do you reach the right angles in your setup? Maybe it would help to make a drawing of your setup. For example, if the speakers or the listening position are against the wall, you cannot expect a good result.

You will be surprised, how much influence the right positing etc has on sound quality.
In such a small room, I even wonder if a center is needed and would try to see how it sounds without. That also solves the question regarding the uniform lcr, although given that the speakers are apparently from the same series, I would not expect too many problems.

Finally, and this is a question of taste, a Yamaha has a lot of dsp effects that can make a soundtrack appear more cinema like and in a well treated room, gives the impression of a larger space. Sticking to Denon, with a 10% difference, it cannot hurt to take the larger receiver - even if it is just to invest into the future. My main advice remains though to try to get the best out of what you currently have first.
Sorry at the first place.
The price of 4700H is 30% over 3700H in my region, sorry for my poor mis-understanding at the first place.
I had my drawing at #5, https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...can-improve-for-my-avr-set.32208/post-1133691
Basically my LR is at the middle height level (my ear level)of the TV. C is place below TV and pointing to my sofa.
LR are close to wall as my area is too small
 

Tangband

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Thank you for your suggestions. This is my first time to hear Studio speaker, can you help to let me know a bit more how is Genelec been better to my existing Wharfedale speakers?
Your center channel is much better if you turn it around . But you still have one big problem- you have different loudspeakers at the front = not good . They should be the same.
The distortion and frequency response are better in Genelec 8020.
Its a big difference soundwise.
The Genelecs, being active , gonna sound better when playing loud, but also when playing at low volume . This is a big advantage with active loudspeakers.

Your Wharfedale loudspeakers are passive constructions and are really cheap . They might be really good for the money but they are no match for better active loudspeakers . I would even guess that 3 active jbl 305 would also be an improvement , despite the low price.

If you keep your wharfedale loudspeakers and buy a Denon 4700 then maybe the sound will be a little bit better but the big bottleneck is your loudspeakers .
 
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ThatM1key

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It is encouraging to know that you got the Polk Audio bookshelf speakers to play the Dolby Atmos. I wish to have similar set with you too.
Unfortunately my AVR is still mainly DD+ and Atmos only support on BD only (I do not have any BD rom). I might need to have similar setup like you in my next AVR.

Also the price of 4700H is 30% over 3700H in my region, sorry for my poor mis-understanding at the first place.
There is DA on streaming services in form of DD+. If you put your AVR into direct mode, it'll bypass the DA metadata even if its a BD. You would want it in any other mode than Direct and Multi Stereo for correct playback of DA content.

For the bare minimum for height bookshelf speakers, you would want the same brand as your other speakers. If possible the same series as your other speakers.
 

Tangband

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Thank you for your suggestions. This is my first time to hear Studio speaker, can you help to let me know a bit more how is Genelec been better to my existing Wharfedale speakers?
Here you have measurement comparisons of d320 and Genelec 8320 . The 8020 measure the same but havent got GLM .

This measurements show only a few things - the frequency response and directivity . However, a good active application has big advantages in the bass region of the music , soundwise. Much bigger than the measurements shows.
66AA22C9-E71B-4F08-8F61-519E45187639.png
6DB42A89-5C0A-47DB-AE66-27F07361E05F.png
 
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