-
WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!
Dirac Bass Control for biamped full range speaker subs?
- Thread starter Pablo1
- Start date
Hmm, actually it depends what exactly you are trying to achieve and with what gear. At first sight seems a bit off though.
As I understand, DLBC will not work if you don't actually have designated subs. Would you want or not want to have them as such is a separate question. Bypassing the crossover seems like a really bad idea unless you know exactly what you are up to and there is no other way to get there.
As I understand, DLBC will not work if you don't actually have designated subs. Would you want or not want to have them as such is a separate question. Bypassing the crossover seems like a really bad idea unless you know exactly what you are up to and there is no other way to get there.
Yes. Please be more specific about the speakers/amps and their configuration.
- Thread Starter
- #4
I have Acoustat Spectra 3 which are large electrostatic speakers that have a downward facing subwoofer built into the bottom enclosure.
They have a switch to bypass the passive crossover for use with active crossovers. I have two Hafler DH-500 amps to drive these speakers in a bi-amp configuration. I also have separate amps for my other channels in my 5.1 configuration. I’m looking into getting a Denon AVR with Dirac Live and Bass Control using the preouts using the because of the price point compared to stand alone processors.
Speaking out based only on what you report, it seems possible if you treat the ELS element as a main speaker and the "subs" as subs and if you are careful about choosing the crossover point. What is the factory-set crossover frequency?
Mostly, these systems do not crossover at 80 Hz, but higher. Then, stereo bass is recommended. The Denon AVR doesn't offer this from start and I doubt that it does with the DLBC.
So, you will certainly need a 2x4 controller such as from miniDSP as well as two more piwer amp channels.
So, you will certainly need a 2x4 controller such as from miniDSP as well as two more piwer amp channels.
- Thread Starter
- #7
Factory crossover of the ESLs is 100hz and the Denons AVRs can calibrate up to 4 subs from the sub outs with Dirac Bass Control. I could use a Mini DSP as an active crossover but thought Dirac BC may be beneficial for the crossover plus the bass processing it provides. Both my Hafler amps are stereo to support the biamp for the fronts.
Last edited:
Subwoofer channels are normally downmixed and summarized to mono in AVRs, while only delay and level is individual for each sub.
This is the optimum at 80 Hz and lower, measuring the combined room response of all subs at your listening position. When crossed over higher, that downmix might affect localisation. Crossover is never a "digital" thing with 99 Hz being completely at the subwoofer and 101 Hz at the mains. The soundstage gets narrower, slightly tending towards mono.
This is the optimum at 80 Hz and lower, measuring the combined room response of all subs at your listening position. When crossed over higher, that downmix might affect localisation. Crossover is never a "digital" thing with 99 Hz being completely at the subwoofer and 101 Hz at the mains. The soundstage gets narrower, slightly tending towards mono.
There are miniDSPs with Dirac and Bass Control, so no AVR needed.
- Thread Starter
- #10
I understand that the crossover isn’t a brick wall. I believe with Dirac you can link the subs to specific channels otherwise my original idea was to use a MiniDSP. I plan on using Dirac with Bass Control regardless for my powered sub but was thinking it could also act as an active crossover for my ESLs so a MiniDSP wouldn’t be necessary. I will do more research.
Of course, that is critical. One would have to determine if the particular AVR is capable of managing the subs proplerly.
- Thread Starter
- #12
The bass management on an AVR is different than the standard calibration software when you pay for a license to use Dirac Bass Control. My question was geared toward those with experience using multiple subs with Dirac but I will do research and report back if you’re interested.
That's why I hesitate. I use DL in a PC and I can distribute signals and/or add channels at will.
I've been doing exactly what you're talking about for close to 20 years on the same sets of speakers. I bypassed the onboard XO, used a DCX2496/NU12,000,
set the XO points I wanted and never looked back. The NU12,000 are directly coupled with # 10 and there is perfect cone control with ZERO problems. It's
very comparable to servo control subs I've been using for close to 50 years. Infinities bass columns (50 years) Rythmic plates with GR's servo drivers (10 plus years)
I can use ANY sub-driver with the combination as long as I remove the passive. I've never run into problems and I've done 100s of sub drivers, MANY were
onboard towers with a bi-amp option. I've also swapped out sub-drivers, did a little work on the cabinet size along with adding dampening material to the existing
cabinet with great results.
I used to ADD Infinity servo circuits to speakers like the RSQL series and was actually contracted by Infinity to make close to 50 or so conversions. It was very popular
with the 12" DVC (smaller secondary coil). As good as the Infinity was it had problems in relation to speed. I'm a serious small planar/ribbon user.
Direct coupled, adequate wire size, and just about any power amp will work. I doubt you could find a better sub/bass system. If I can't break it it's pretty darn tough.
I recently purchased a mini HT 8 for a FR system to compare. NU12000 for subs, 4 15" GSR subs, NU12,000 for Bass columns using Dayton RS225A 8" bass woofers in columns (6 per side), Cary V12Rs/EL34s driving GSR Neo 10, 6 per column and Son of Ampzilla II driving 10 GSR 3.0 ribbons per side in columns. ALL direct coupled
All the cones are wired at 8ohms, subs, and bass columns. The Neo 10s and 3.0 ribbons are wired at 12-16 ohms.
I like EL34 mids and lower HF 300hz to 6000hz, BUT I've lost a considerable amount of HF in my ears and I wanted close to ZERO feed back for the HF 6000hz >
They don't build what I NEED for MY ears, so I embarked on my final personal speaker system.
I'm honestly not interested in how it measures as long as I can HEAR what I want and be able to adjust to my personal needs. I'm pretty sure after I do a little
tinkering and then MEASURE the result it will look much like a hill climb from the bottom to the top, BUT I will be able to hear what I want to hear and not
have to adjust hearing aids to compensate for hearing loss.
It's one of those cases that in 5 minutes I could change it back for the younger ears that frequent my shop/listening rooms. Many of them are DEAF
from BOOM BOOM anyway. They have a LOT of LF loss, behind improper protection at work and their car stereos.
I wanted to build a low-dollar system that could rival what I have been seeing/hearing at shows for 40 - 300K. I'm close to 5K, less the preamp and source.
I need to weld up some clamp/stands for the planar/ribbon columns and get them powder-coated. I just found a new local guy. We'll see.
It may not be the pinacol of modern-day aesthetics, but then it doesn't cost what a pretty nice house could cost either AND it can be changed fairly easy
when I kick the bucket for the next guy/gal, IF they want. Early spring I should be finished. It's too cold to work in the shop this winter.
Regards
set the XO points I wanted and never looked back. The NU12,000 are directly coupled with # 10 and there is perfect cone control with ZERO problems. It's
very comparable to servo control subs I've been using for close to 50 years. Infinities bass columns (50 years) Rythmic plates with GR's servo drivers (10 plus years)
I can use ANY sub-driver with the combination as long as I remove the passive. I've never run into problems and I've done 100s of sub drivers, MANY were
onboard towers with a bi-amp option. I've also swapped out sub-drivers, did a little work on the cabinet size along with adding dampening material to the existing
cabinet with great results.
I used to ADD Infinity servo circuits to speakers like the RSQL series and was actually contracted by Infinity to make close to 50 or so conversions. It was very popular
with the 12" DVC (smaller secondary coil). As good as the Infinity was it had problems in relation to speed. I'm a serious small planar/ribbon user.
Direct coupled, adequate wire size, and just about any power amp will work. I doubt you could find a better sub/bass system. If I can't break it it's pretty darn tough.
I recently purchased a mini HT 8 for a FR system to compare. NU12000 for subs, 4 15" GSR subs, NU12,000 for Bass columns using Dayton RS225A 8" bass woofers in columns (6 per side), Cary V12Rs/EL34s driving GSR Neo 10, 6 per column and Son of Ampzilla II driving 10 GSR 3.0 ribbons per side in columns. ALL direct coupled
All the cones are wired at 8ohms, subs, and bass columns. The Neo 10s and 3.0 ribbons are wired at 12-16 ohms.
I like EL34 mids and lower HF 300hz to 6000hz, BUT I've lost a considerable amount of HF in my ears and I wanted close to ZERO feed back for the HF 6000hz >
They don't build what I NEED for MY ears, so I embarked on my final personal speaker system.
I'm honestly not interested in how it measures as long as I can HEAR what I want and be able to adjust to my personal needs. I'm pretty sure after I do a little
tinkering and then MEASURE the result it will look much like a hill climb from the bottom to the top, BUT I will be able to hear what I want to hear and not
have to adjust hearing aids to compensate for hearing loss.
It's one of those cases that in 5 minutes I could change it back for the younger ears that frequent my shop/listening rooms. Many of them are DEAF
from BOOM BOOM anyway. They have a LOT of LF loss, behind improper protection at work and their car stereos.
I wanted to build a low-dollar system that could rival what I have been seeing/hearing at shows for 40 - 300K. I'm close to 5K, less the preamp and source.
I need to weld up some clamp/stands for the planar/ribbon columns and get them powder-coated. I just found a new local guy. We'll see.
It may not be the pinacol of modern-day aesthetics, but then it doesn't cost what a pretty nice house could cost either AND it can be changed fairly easy
when I kick the bucket for the next guy/gal, IF they want. Early spring I should be finished. It's too cold to work in the shop this winter.
Regards
There is no hint that the difference contains stereo bass.
Bass Control is about improving the room response by using multiple subwoofers yet driven mono, otherwise it wouldn't work:
Dirac Live Bass Control
Dirac Live Bass Control. Automate subwoofer optimization for a strong, smooth, and refined bass response in all listening positions.
www.dirac.com
Your usecase can be handled by standard fullrange stereo Dirac if you add an active crossover that also time-aligns and adjusts levels of sub and ESLs.
The Bass Control doesn't do the job you are looking for as it isn't designed for this.
- Thread Starter
- #17
The way they note channels confused me but I suppose in a stereo 2.1 arrangement the frequencies below the crossover all go to a mono subwoofer channel anyway but I imagine a problem with using the subs in my ESLs as separate mono subs with Dirac BC would be some frequencies in their crossover slope would no longer go to them. These are frequencies I will have with the use of MiniDSP as an active crossover then can add in the powered sub.There is no hint that the difference contains stereo bass.
Bass Control is about improving the room response by using multiple subwoofers yet driven mono, otherwise it wouldn't work:
Dirac Live Bass Control
Dirac Live Bass Control. Automate subwoofer optimization for a strong, smooth, and refined bass response in all listening positions.
Your usecase can be handled by standard fullrange stereo Dirac if you add an active crossover that also time-aligns and adjusts levels of sub and ESLs.
The Bass Control doesn't do the job you are looking for as it isn't designed for this.
Last edited:
I can't figure out that one. Why should you lose frequencues? Apart from this and as told earlier, let out BC. It doesn't help here except for the better filtering compared to standard Dirac. Two subs could also be handled before by almost any better AVR. BC now can handle 4 subs, but then again, as a mono downmix. Also, it helps positioning these four subs.
You only have two subs with a given position. No benefit from BC possible.
If the ESLs are able to, try 80 Hz and 2.1. You can even try 100 Hz at 2.1. It might work although it doesn't match the quality of the speakers. Most content, even music, is mono below 80 Hz anyway, so 2.1 adds another filtering that is unnecessary here and might harm sound quality especially if higher than 80 Hz.
So a 2.2 does the job here. It also allows trying to cross over at 120 or even 150 Hz in order to increase headroom and clarity of the ESLs.
Instead of an AVR, the miniDSP 2x4 FLEX with optional Dirac license would just fit perfectly.
- Thread Starter
- #19
Thanks for your input. I just realized I never mentioned that this is part of 5.1 system but you make a point about not being able to position the subs in my speakers. I was referring to losing frequency response using an 80hz crossover for the subs opposed to the 100hz which the passive uses but I didn’t make that clear.
Similar threads
