Dirac ART is now running on beta FW for Denon Xx800H AVRs!

[Oddball]

Agreed and I saw that years ago with Jamo D870 when running them fullrange. The little 6.5" midwoofer was clearly overdriven with LFE mixed into the mains but luckily they didn't pop. Since that day I'll always set my LCR speakers to small.

And all actual StormAudio owners have LCR+S speakers with powerful 10-12" high X-max woofers to cope with the demands of ART? Have there been reports of blown speakers in the StormAudio community?

Can't D&M apply a walkthrough menu for ART (like they already have for the initial setup) where you enter all your speaker data (cone size, sensitivity, ...) to set ART support limits and avoid possible damage?

Have been occasionally peaking into Storm threads and don't think that many do have such powerful setups. But the frequent questions are about upgrade for front towers and getting additional subs.

ART will measure your speakers, just like Dirac or Audy, and will suggest the cut off frequencies and curves, but you can override them. Can't recall exactly as have not had much ART time, but think you need to designate yourself which speakers will support which speakers (by assigning them into groups as well). From my experience it is really important to keep the original curves. I have tried many times to extend them by +5dB and speakers did not like it with LFE distribution.

@ban25 - There is similar setting in ART that allows you to increase or decrease support from any given speaker, but again it will be more difficult to set than LFE distribution. For LFE distribution you put a bass heavy track (like the one you know is really heavy) and you set it up. For ART, you don't actually know when will the given speaker be called to provide significant level of support so more difficult to set the level. Some people might get impatient at this point and increase the level of support that would be beyond wise.

 

[Frank207be]

Have been occasionally peaking into Storm threads and don't think that many do have such powerful setups. But the frequent questions are about upgrade for front towers and getting additional subs.

ART will measure your speakers, just like Dirac or Audy, and will suggest the cut off frequencies and curves, but you can override them. Can't recall exactly as have not had much ART time, but think you need to designate yourself which speakers will support which speakers (by assigning them into groups as well). From my experience it is really important to keep the original curves. I have tried many times to extend them by +5dB and speakers did not like it with LFE distribution.

@ban25 - There is similar setting in ART that allows you to increase or decrease support from any given speaker, but again it will be more difficult to set than LFE distribution. For LFE distribution you put a bass heavy track (like the one you know is really heavy) and you set it up. For ART, you don't actually know when will the given speaker be called to provide significant level of support so more difficult to set the level. Some people might get impatient at this point and increase the level of support that would be beyond wise.

So Storm users have questions too after all

Instead of being afraid of popping speakers, couldn't we talk about safe speaker dimensions or SPL capabilities to get the full benefits of ART down to the lowest support frequency?

I'm aiming at 105dB/1m at 20Hz for LCR and surrounds. Surround back and Atmos speakers will be excluded from support duties.
I'll also make my front sub the beefiest of all 4.
The back subs will only support up to 100Hz to avoid midbass leaking.

 

[Dj7675]

Much of this talk and concern about ART blowing speakers just does not present itself in real life use. I suppose you could go out of your way to do something maybe but it would be quite difficult to do so. When you listen to the cancellation signals you will understand that these levels are very low. I have done this many times and the signal level, relative to source material just isn't very high.

 

[Oddball]

Well not ART expert and had only some hours to play with it. Was not really all falling in place but than again it is complex system to set up. Storm 16 unit I had was primarily to evaluate DLBC and was set for that.

Not sure what the speakers are to support at that level at 20hz, seems a bit extended. Some speakers could do it though. With ART you will not be able to adjust dB support, it will have another adjustment matrix that will not necessarily translate easily into dB.

For subs I had more questions than answers so not really sure how that works honestly. Was not really working that great but could have been my fault or fault of sloppy setup by the dealer.

 

[Oddball]

Much of this talk and concern about ART blowing speakers just does not present itself in real life use. I suppose you could go out of your way to do something maybe but it would be quite difficult to do so. When you listen to the cancellation signals you will understand that these levels are very low. I have done this many times and the signal level, relative to source material just isn't very high.

Hmm interesting point. But how could the low level 20 hz or 35hz signal correct decay in the region where I would need correction and levels of original signal are well - way above 100dB?

I think that most people who bothered have solved the issues above that (absent some really nasty rooms or budget constraints) but going into 35-20hz range is where I would expect ART to kick in.

 

[AudioJester]

View attachment 422651View attachment 422652View attachment 422653

It's free, it's already available for all Denon, Marantz and it corrects a little beyond 150 Hz in 5 minutes and it's certainly easier to implement than that thing that never arrives...

What are you showing here?

 

[mosco]

What are you showing here?

Hello. My result of the Neuron 1.6 software is a free development by Serko that I suggest you try while ART appears.

 

[AudioJester]

Hello. My result of the Neuron 1.6 software is a free development by Serko that I suggest you try while ART appears.

Ah, i see. Could never get the original version to work properly, I think because of an issue with the App.
Everyone raves about Neuron, will have to try it sometime.
Do you have multiple subs, does it still require MSO?

 

[IamJF]

Sonarworks is not far from that. I wish others would do the same sort of ranging and feedback tech that they use. You can visualize actual and desired mike positions in real time, then move the mike until they coincide before it takes the measurement.

That's the best function of Sonarworks! Really makes it easier.

 

[gorman]

In any case, I was in communication with the dev team to report an anomaly. I wrote my opinion on the subject matter, fully disclosing that I don't expect them to comment on rumours. But at least they know. I urge anybody who has an interest in ART release on Denon/Marantz to do the same.

Got a reply from Dirac. The discussion here and my specific point of view were linked to them. They thanked me and said it was forwarded to the development team. I don't know if the decision is up to Dirac, up to Denon or to both companies. There's basically zero solid information at the moment. But I thought it was worth it to make my opinion known. Again, as I stated, if you are interested in having Dirac ART on Denon/Marantz AVRs, I urge you to do the same.

 

[Fidji]

Hmm interesting point. But how could the low level 20 hz or 35hz signal correct decay in the region where I would need correction and levels of original signal are well - way above 100dB?

I think that most people who bothered have solved the issues above that (absent some really nasty rooms or budget constraints) but going into 35-20hz range is where I would expect ART to kick in.

I am occasionally watching this thread, as I will be installing smaller secondary cinema and as i have soft spot for Denon/Marantz, I was hoping to get cutting edge DRC in affordable package - ART on Storm is of no interest, as it lands me into Trinnov type of cost. I had a chance to hear professionally installed Storm/ART setup in acoustically very challenging environment [modern interior with lot of glass] and I assume that without ART it would be absolutely unlistenable and with ART it was actually OK experience. I would like to hear what ART contributes in "good" room - properly treated, subs close to their optimal positions etc [that type of room, where e.g. Audyssey gets you excellent results already]

Just my 2 cents:
- lowest frequencies [say below 25-30Hz] are actually not that problematic - either they are below first modal frequency of the room or there is one resonance, that is easy to handle with EQ. in my room this frequency is 26Hz and below that there are no standing waves* (typo edited), so nothing to worry about - one just needs to have adequate power and woofer size/count to pressurize the room.
- What causes the issues in those frequencies [and overall] is usually speakers and subs being driven near their limits - what sounds ok'eish at 75dB-80dB falls apart completely in any dynamic peak, as compression kicks in. Sometimes I have the impression, there is some prize to be won by pushing crossover frequency as low as possible, or as if designated some speaker "small" means that one's ***** is getting smaller.
Nothing sounds worse than driver bottoming up.

In my opinion, it would be sensible from Dirac to issue "best design practices for ART" - for Custom Installers and HT enthusiasts - something along the lines:
- do not mix ported and sealed subwoofers for best possible experience [or whatever]
- consider your "supporting speakers" to have ability to hit 105dB at desired lowest supported frequency
etc etc

 

[pogo]

Nothing sounds worse than driver bottoming up.

I have already mentioned this several times. Correction artifacts may even become audible if speakers or amplifiers do not perform (compression, distortion, ...).
I see the small Denon AVRs without an external power amplifier as less suitable for ART. To make matters worse, ART is extended beyond 150Hz.

 

[Frank207be]

I have already mentioned this several times. Correction artifacts may even become audible if speakers or amplifiers do not perform (compression, distortion, ...).
I see the small Denon AVRs without an external power amplifier as less suitable for ART. To make matters worse, ART is extended beyond 150Hz.

But on the positive side all these small D&M AVR have pre-outs for all channels to solve this issue.

 

[pogo]

I hope that the next generation AVR from D&M will have class-d stages built in to address the issue, like the new NAD T799.

 

[neRok]

in my room this frequency is 26Hz and below that there are no standing ways, so nothing to worry about

When you think outside the box, it turns out there is no box!

Well, we have actually forgotten one thing; the indices (nx,ny,nz) do not start at (1,0,0), (0,1,0), or (0,0,1); they start at (0,0,0)! We have a mode at 0 Hz that pressurizes the room the same in all positions, so no gradients, and it satisfies the wave equation as discussed already. Room gain is simply the effect of having an eigenmode at DC!

(To be fair, I don't actually know this science, I just know I read it )

 

[navier]

I have already mentioned this several times. Correction artifacts may even become audible if speakers or amplifiers do not perform (compression, distortion, ...).
I see the small Denon AVRs without an external power amplifier as less suitable for ART. To make matters worse, ART is extended beyond 150Hz.

What are then the minimum power requirements? Is it documented anywhere?

 

[pogo]

Among others, this depends on the speakers you use and the location in the room.

 

[Dj7675]

Hmm interesting point. But how could the low level 20 hz or 35hz signal correct decay in the region where I would need correction and levels of original signal are well - way above 100dB?

I think that most people who bothered have solved the issues above that (absent some really nasty rooms or budget constraints) but going into 35-20hz range is where I would expect ART to kick in.

The answer is for 99% of people, you would never allow support speakers to support in the 20-35hz region. You have multiple subwoofers to support those frequencies. In my rooms I have always had some issues in 30-40hz range, but my worse issues have always been in the 80-120hz range. DLBC never really conquered those issues but ART does. You either need a truly full range speaker if you want ART to handle the cancellation of those very low speakers, or in my opinion a speaker designed for the task (ie a subwoofer).

 

[Fidji]

The answer is for 99% of people, you would never allow support speakers to support in the 20-35hz region. You have multiple subwoofers to support those frequencies. In my rooms I have always had some issues in 30-40hz range, but my worse issues have always been in the 80-120hz range. DLBC never really conquered those issues but ART does. You either need a truly full range speaker if you want ART to handle the cancellation of those very low speakers, or in my opinion a speaker designed for the task (ie a subwoofer).

I do agree with your diagnostics - also my experience is that 40-100 Hz is critical, as there is much more content there, and ear starts to be more sensitive to mostly timing/decay/phase related problems. And sorting issues there was important foundation for all of the other adjustments.

But 80-120Hz is already the area where we enter the realm of spatial cues, 2nd harmonics of some bass notes and here I think, that room and each speaker needs to perform by itself [does not mean not using EQ, it is still needed] - means there should be already acoustic treatments addressing this frequency range, woofers must be able to hit reference levels without compression and distortion, if we are trying to build high performance system.

I think decay should be normalized at +- desired decay times from 80Hz upwards, most of the resonances should be addressed by passive absorption, rather than relaying on digital filters. It just sounds better, even if measured FR looks the same.

 

[abdo123]

I do agree with your diagnostics - also my experience is that 40-100 Hz is critical, as there is much more content there, and ear starts to be more sensitive to mostly timing/decay/phase related problems. And sorting issues there was important foundation for all of the other adjustments.

But 80-120Hz is already the area where we enter the realm of spatial cues, 2nd harmonics of some bass notes and here I think, that room and each speaker needs to perform by itself [does not mean not using EQ, it is still needed] - means there should be already acoustic treatments addressing this frequency range, woofers must be able to hit reference levels without compression and distortion, if we are trying to build high performance system.

I think decay should be normalized at +- desired decay times from 80Hz upwards, most of the resonances should be addressed by passive absorption, rather than relaying on digital filters. It just sounds better, even if measured FR looks the same.

I don’t think it’s fair to say passive treatment sounds better than ART when the product is not even out yet.