Denon DCD-1700NE CD/SACD player measurements

[only.shallow]

Hi. A review and measurements were recently published on hifinews for the Denon DCD-1700NE CD/SACD player along with its accomping amp. At $1500, the DCD-1700NE seems to be in the median price bracket for a new SACD player but how do the measurements look to you all? Average, bad? Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.

Denon DCD/PMA-1700NE SACD Player/Amplifier

Denon has been in existence for 111 years, resolutely supporting CD playback for the last 40. Its latest CD disc spinner handles SACD too, and joins the 1700 series amplifier The Denon duo in the limelight here are an obvious refresh of the previous generation DCD-1600NE disc player and...

www.hifinews.com

Maximum output level / Impedance	2.36Vrms / 97ohm
A-wtd S/N ratio (CD / SACD)	110.1dB / 110.6dB
Distortion (1kHz, 0dBFs/–30dBFs)	0.00085% / 0.0035%
Distortion & Noise (20kHz, 0dBFs/–30dBFs)	0.00070% / 0.0016%
Freq. resp. (CD, 20Hz-20kHz / 100kHz)	+0.0 to –1.8dB/–13.6dB (SACD)
Digital jitter (CD / SACD)	114psec / 56psec
Resolution @ –100dB (CD / SACD)	±0.2dB / ±0.1dB
Power consumption	14W (1W standby)
Dimensions (WHD) / Weight	434x135x384mm / 9.8kg

 

[kongkong]

here is more specific measurement (by Sound stage network audio precision)

I can see ps hum noise and jitter noise (when use coaxial input).
It is not 'SOTA' amplifier but I think good enough.
I also like to use seprated DAC (topping or audio interface which is made more technically) and want to use Purifi, but Denon usually have good build quaility and after service.
Also it will very easy to use with one remote control. (Multifunctional all-in-one amplifier can connect easily to desktop, tv, turn table etc...)

Nowdays I use audio interface and minidsp for my KH80 and mini subwoofer in my working room, but 1700ne will give more convenience for beginner.
I also had similar one (Pioneer's all-in-one streaming amplifier) when I didn't have nearfield audio system and exprience was good.

 

[GXAlan]

here is more specific measurement (by Sound stage network audio precision)

That is the integrated amp in the 1700NE line but the original post is for the SACD player.

0.00070% THD+N translates into 103 dB SINAD which puts it in the Marantz SACD 30n/SA-10 class.

The SA-10 was 0.00130% at HifiNews though which is only 98 dB SINAD. (Compared to the 105 Amir got).

So the Denon probably would reach 105-110 with an APx555.

 

[kongkong]

그것은 1700NE 라인의 통합 앰프이지만 원래 게시물은 SACD 플레이어용입니다.

0.00070% THD+N은 103dB SINAD로 변환되며 이는 Marantz SACD 30n/SA-10 클래스에 해당합니다.

SA-10은 HifiNews에서 0.00130%였지만 이는 98dB SINAD에 불과합니다. (아미르가 얻은 105와 비교).

따라서 Denon은 아마도 APx555를 사용하면 105-110에 도달할 것입니다.

Opps I only read pma-1700ne. thx for noticing mistake

You indicate @VintageFlanker 's measurement, arn't you?

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...-measurements-sacd-player-dac-streamer.33430/
here is Vintage Flanker's

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...s/marantz-sa-10-review-sacd-player-dac.31686/
And this is SA-10 meausred by Amir


I hope their measurement can be useful to OP.

 

[GXAlan]

You indicate @VintageFlanker 's measurement, arn't you?

Yes. I also measured the SA-10 in the same thread as Amir and got a little bit extra SINAD.

Actually, looking at it,I don’t know if that 20kHz measurement for the Denon is a single tone or range.

Marantz SACD 30n/Model 30 SACD/Network Player/Amp Lab Report

Lab Report Employing the same Ncore NC500 Class D amp module as the PM-KI Ruby [HFN Jan '19] and PM-12SE [HFN Nov '20], the performance of the restyled Model 30 is necessarily very similar. Once again, the modest 100/200W 8/4ohm rating is exceeded to the tune of 200W/330W, with 240W, 445W, 577W...

www.hifinews.com

The SACD30n has lower distortion but higher noise, but they don’t report the same set of data

 

[GXAlan]

Oh, and for whatever it is worth, I enjoyed my Marantz SA-10/PM-10 combo but I switched to a Sony UBP-X800MK2 which converts SACD to 24-176 PCM (using Sony’s algorithms) which then runs to a Yamaha CX-A5100 or Monolith HTP-1. While peak SINAD is lower, at the output voltages i deal with, the end result is very similar.

Nothing wrong with the Marantz combo and it looked and operated well. I thought it would be my end-game electronics stack as I looked for a speaker combo that would be end game also. Ultimately, I sold the Marantz gear to finance the move to the Meyer Sound Amie speakers which are end game in their size for my room given their ability to perceptually upgrade the room.

 

[AnalogSteph]

A review and measurements were recently published on hifinews for the Denon DCD-1700NE CD/SACD player along with its accomping amp. At $1500, the DCD-1700NE seems to be in the median price bracket for a new SACD player but how do the measurements look to you all? Average, bad? Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.

More than good enough for a line-level device. Looks like Denon found some decent opamps, the 0.00017% 1 kHz distortion for SACD is almost an order of magnitude better than spec. Why dynamic range would fall this much short of DAC spec I'm not sure, but it doesn't matter either. No testing of intersample-over handling, unfortunately, the PCM1795 should be one of those DACs with an affinity to hard-clipping at 0 dBFS and it doesn't look like there is a digital volume control. Their power consumption testing setup could apparently use an update, I wouldn't expect real life to deviate by a factor of 10 from official spec (0.1 W standby), particularly in the face of current EU legislation (max 0.5 W).

In sum, it's not a very exciting device. It's a quality traditional CD/SACD player with minor updates. You could have bought one very much like it 10-15 years ago. Not sure how many they're expecting to shift at that kind of price.

 

[only.shallow]

Thanks everybody for the help! I was waiting this year for the Schiit Urd to finally go on sale but at $1300... I might as well spend a couple of extra $$$ and get a SACD player. Regardless, I'm just looking for a solid disc player that plays well enough for CD and/or SACD; I have a streaming system that plays great for high res stuff.

Also this is the BEST time to be buying used CD/SACDs at cheap prices. Many great releases with excellent masters that can be played and/or ripped to a server. I love streaming but way too many great titles with shit masters. I am curious if there will be more CD players on the market in the future as buying and shipping vinyl has become horribly expensive.

 

[Snoopy]

Oh, and for whatever it is worth, I enjoyed my Marantz SA-10/PM-10 combo but I switched to a Sony UBP-X800MK2 which converts SACD to 24-176 PCM (using Sony’s algorithms) which then runs to a Yamaha CX-A5100 or Monolith HTP-1. While peak SINAD is lower, at the output voltages i deal with, the end result is very similar.

Nothing wrong with the Marantz combo and it looked and operated well. I thought it would be my end-game electronics stack as I looked for a speaker combo that would be end game also. Ultimately, I sold the Marantz gear to finance the move to the Meyer Sound Amie speakers which are end game in their size for my room given their ability to perceptually upgrade the room.

How good is that algorithm? I’m look for a 4K Blu-ray player anyway.

 

[Scytales]

That is the integrated amp in the 1700NE line but the original post is for the SACD player.

0.00070% THD+N translates into 103 dB SINAD which puts it in the Marantz SACD 30n/SA-10 class.

The SA-10 was 0.00130% at HifiNews though which is only 98 dB SINAD. (Compared to the 105 Amir got).

So the Denon probably would reach 105-110 with an APx555.

The 0.00130 % THD+N at 0 dBFS obtained by HFN tester Paul Miller with its own Miller Audio Research QC Suite analyzer was at 20 kHz, not 1 kHz as in amirm's review: https://www.sarte-audio.com/sites/d...rantz_sa-10_hi-fi_news_review_march_20170.pdf

As can be seen on the website of Miller Audio Research (registration required to see test results other than those of 2003 and 2004 years), THD with the QC Suite is computed over the 2nd to the 4th harmonics: http://www.milleraudioresearch.com/avtech/avtech_1.html

Marantz has designed it's own 1 bit noise-shaped DAC for its SA-10. Hence the higher THD+N reading at 20 kHz: the "N" term most probably incorporates the noise level, which is shaped by the sigma-delta DAC, above 20 kHz up to at least 80 kHz.

 

[Sokel]

The sure thing is that specs are way better as time goes by.
That's my old (20 yo) DENON DVD5000 which was really good for the time:



Analyzers have evolve too,so...

 

[NTTY]

here is more specific measurement (by Sound stage network audio precision)

Interesting and thank you.

The amplifier is said to use the in house oversampling filter AL32 which we can recognize from the wide band white noise shape:

But, as opposed to what the text says, it is not a fast filter, but a slow one. In addition, with a slow filter, the alias of the 19.1kHz tone (at 25kHz) should be much higher (roughly at -40dB, not below -100dB as shown). This is again an effect of the AL32 which automatically switches to a sharp filter when detecting typical test tones as I showed in the Denon DCD-900NE (it was the same much before with the AL24 of the Denon DCD-SA1).
So again, Denon made the reviewer happy not to see high level aliases in this test, but they were just hidden.

————
Flo

 

[Scytales]

I just re-read an interesting point highlighted by Paul Miller in the above mentioned Hi-Fi News & Record Review review of the Denon DCD-1700NE that I had previously missed : the frequency response of the player in CD replay shows a heavily filtered treble.

According to Paul Miller, the frequency response is down to -1.8 dB @ 20 kHz when measured with steady state (sinus) signals and as much as -6.5 dB @ 20 kHz when measured with transient-like signals (more akin to musical signals, presumably some kind of noise signal). This is a huge discriminating factor in favor of SA-CD/DSD, which don't suffer from this behavior. Add to that a difference of about 0.5 dB in output level between CD and SA-CD replay and anyone must absolutely hear a difference between this two types of disc for this two reasons alone, notwithstanding the respective properties of each disc format.

The observation of Paul Miller is worth comparing with NTTY's findings about the frequency response of the smaller siblings of the DCD-1700NE, the DCD-900NE, and the earlier and higher end DCD-SA1.

Certainly the treble roll-off is due to the kind of digital filter applied by Denon in CD mode. I wouldn't be surprised if the DCD-SA1 doesn't show such roll-off in SA-CD mode (except, possibly, if the optional decimation of DSD into PCM feature is enable).

 

[Snoopy]

Isn’t the volume on SACD 6db lower to begin with ? Maybe they wanted to match the volume of CDs and SACDs.

The Denon resamples everything to pcm in the end .

 

[Scytales]

Isn’t the volume on SACD 6db lower to begin with ? Maybe they wanted to match the volume of CDs and SACDs.

The Denon resamples everything to pcm in the end .

About the level of DSD signals on SA-CD, the situation is more complicated than that.

The Scarlet Book (SA-CD specifications) specifies that 0 dB SA-CD is equal to 50% DSD modulation index. That means that DSD signals can theoretically go up to +6 dB at the onset of clipping, but the specifications also mandates two limitations, short term and medium term peaks, the former being equivalent to a maximum +3.1 dB. These rules are stated in Annex D of part II of the Scarlet Book.

The Scarlet Book also recommends (in Annex E) that fully modulated CD Audio signals (ie 0 dBFS) should output the same analogue level than fully modulated DSD signals as per the above specifications (ie 0 dB SA-CD). So theoretically, with CD/SA-CD players following both this rules and recommendation, DSD signals may be able put slightly higher analogue level (+3.1 dB) out than CD Audio PCM signals.

The usually quoted phrase "DSD signals have 6 dB lower level than PCM" originates from the fact than when DSD is decimated in PCM, as it is sometimes done for whatever reasons, the maximum theoretical 100% DSD modulation index (ie +6 dB SA-CD) should be aligned with 0 dBFS in order to avoid clipping the digital signal in the PCM domain at all cost. This graph out of the NPC SM5819 DSD to PCM decimation filter chip datasheet illustrates that point (comments in red are mine):

On this above graph, it is shown that, on this particular chip, when DSDGAIN is set to "low" (L), the actual 0 dBFS peak signal produced by the decimation filter is set to correspond to 100% DSD modulation index, which has the effect of applying a -6dB attenuation on any DSD signal. But, as is implied on this graph, there is another setting on this chip (DSDGAIN "high" [H]) with which 0 dBFS is aligned on 50% DSD modulation index (the 0 dB SA-CD). That means that, when this particular chip is used, it can not be taken for granted that the DSD level is 6 dB lower than the PCM signal. When DSDGAIN is set "high" on this chip, DSD signals that comply with the Scarlet Book specifications can saturate in the PCM domain.

The relationship between DSD and PCM maximum levels can be made even more complex by many other factors, not the least of which being that some early SA-CDs pressed at the end of the 1990s and the beginning of the 2000s decades do not comply with the Scarlet Book specifications because, at that time, reliable DSD level metering systems did not exist yet. The most famous example of this is the original Sony SA-CD release of Michael Jackson album's Thriller, that is overmodulated in the DSD domain. I can myself speak about the SA-CD release of Puccini's Turandot opera in the RCA Living Stereo serie: I have discovered the hard way that this SA-CD release is also overmodulated in some passages. Some of my SA-CD players play back this latter SA-CD flawlessly; others don't and put out gross distorsion or mute the output depending on some settings of the players.

And, most importantly, many dual domain (PCM and DSD) digital to analogue converter chips do not have the same output level at 0 dB when converting one form of signal or the other depending on the conversion method they employ. So, some gain adjustement, either in the digital or analogue domain (or both) have to be made in order to align the analogue output level in each mode of operation.

So, the situation is all but simple.

As far as the Denon SA-CD player is concerned, I do not know which one you speak of, the DCD-SA1 or the DCD-1700NE, but neither perform decimation of DSD signals into PCM (except when the optional decimation stage of the DCD-SA1 is enable). They both use Burr Brown digital to analogue converter chips: PCM1792 in the DCD-SA1, PCM1795 in the DCD-1700NE. The designers of this family of chips have described their mode of operation when conversion of DSD signal occurs: digital filtering is applied on the DSD signal, but no decimation (lowering of sample rate down to PCM level) takes place. See post #176 of another thread about that issue.