Denafrips ARES II USB R2R DAC Review

[Jimster480]

Haha that was one of my wake up calls when coming to Audiophilia. I’d hear some never before heard detail on the new gear… until switching back to the old, and yup, there it was.

While proper level matched DBX is hard to pull off for a lot of people, a simple rotation *back* to prior gear often reveals wonders.

PS - Steve Hoffman shared some crackpot theory on this on shtv.

Yep, carefully listening is the most important thing of everything.
This is especially true when people have gear for a long time and as such they don't listen to it critically. Then they get new gear and start listening critically and have an epiphany. Except as you mentioned; there is nothing new. They just need to switch back and listen in the same manner.
If there really is a huge difference then their old gear really had to be just total garbage.

 

[prerich]

Performance was a lot better than I expected. Still worse than cheaper options and the teardown shows many more potential points of failure than a typical D-S DAC, so I still wouldn't buy one.

I have two dacs in my system a S.M.S.L. SU-9N and the Denafrips Ares II with 12th software upgrade. I've looked at the objective data and both are audibly transparent (what shortcomings the Denafrips has are inaudible). I bought the Denafrips used ($500 shipping included) and the SMSL new $400. Resale value - I can get a close to my paid for price with the Denafrips - I might get half price for the SMSL. Subjectively, both were able to resolve a difficult sound on Ben Tankards "When We Meet"....There's a "thunk" after a synth roll that very few systems I've heard bring it out. Having someone use Gizmo to switch back and forth on the dacs, without telling me which was which, proved I preferred the Denafrips, but not by 100% (more like 84% Marantz AV7706 Dac used as a control). Since both are sonically transparent, I will stay with the Denafrips and possibly gift someone in my family the SMSL because I could only sell it for about $200.

 

[prerich]

Not really, the watch industry are not lying to their consumers (ok there is a lot of doginess on their marketing but for diferent reasons), A Richard Mille or a Greubel Forsey are incredible pieces of machinery well worth their almost million dollar price tag, but they are not pretending that practically speaking they are doing something different than telling the time better than a 10 usd casio F91W. They are giving you a better subjective experience. But with audio where you can objectively measure performance and claim you are getting a better subjective experience is absolute BS. I love the point Amirm made on the recent review of the 2 Shiit headphone amps sure the one measurng objectively worst was probably harder to design but what exactly would you do with that narrative when you can get the better measuring one for the same money

"But with audio where you can objectively measure performance and claim you are getting a better subjective experience is absolute BS." I firmly disagree with you here....you can get a better subjective experience if you are looking at it. Some things just look better than others. Computers for example you can have two that spec the same, but put a window on one, where some one can see in inner workings and the fancy lights, or to the other degree one can have a sleek minimalist case....subjective. Equipment ...the same. Speakers - some just look really great! That's subjective - not talking about performance - talking about appearnce (some are adding windows so the crossover can be seen and taken out for easy "upgrades"). Subjective is just that - to each is own.

 

[prerich]

What does matching gear mean? They all have silver cases? They all use RCA or XLR? The voltage out on the DAC allows the amp to work in low gain mode?

Or you mean they sound better together, magically?

This R2R does it the hard way and gets middling results. Why bother?

You say middling results, but the shortcomings are inaudible. So why bother with something that may feel cheaply built? The dac's sound the same...right? Changing filters or adding colorations (like I can with my SU-9N) are the only way you can get two basically transparent dacs to sound dissimilar. So if both are clean in the aspects of human hearing - the deciding factors will be build quality, looks, feature set, and ergonomics. Seeing that I operate everything from my tablet or cellphone, ergonomics are taken care of. For me it's build quality - yes I like a little weight in my gear, looks, and then feature set. Hey, I might eventually go after a Pontus or a Venus...for one reason, full sized case (on the used market of course).

 

[Jimster480]

"But with audio where you can objectively measure performance and claim you are getting a better subjective experience is absolute BS." I firmly disagree with you here....you can get a better subjective experience if you are looking at it. Some things just look better than others. Computers for example you can have two that spec the same, but put a window on one, where some one can see in inner workings and the fancy lights, or to the other degree one can have a sleek minimalist case....subjective. Equipment ...the same. Speakers - some just look really great! That's subjective - not talking about performance - talking about appearnce (some are adding windows so the crossover can be seen and taken out for easy "upgrades"). Subjective is just that - to each is own.

Sure, subjective visuals is one thing. We are talking about subjective audio performance.

I have two dacs in my system a S.M.S.L. SU-9N and the Denafrips Ares II with 12th software upgrade. I've looked at the objective data and both are audibly transparent (what shortcomings the Denafrips has are inaudible). I bought the Denafrips used ($500 shipping included) and the SMSL new $400. Resale value - I can get a close to my paid for price with the Denafrips - I might get half price for the SMSL. Subjectively, both were able to resolve a difficult sound on Ben Tankards "When We Meet"....There's a "thunk" after a synth roll that very few systems I've heard bring it out. Having someone use Gizmo to switch back and forth on the dacs, without telling me which was which, proved I preferred the Denafrips, but not by 100% (more like 84% Marantz AV7706 Dac used as a control). Since both are sonically transparent, I will stay with the Denafrips and possibly gift someone in my family the SMSL because I could only sell it for about $200.

Yep, both will be transparent for the majority of music. There are very few tracks recorded with SINAD of more than 105.

You say middling results, but the shortcomings are inaudible. So why bother with something that may feel cheaply built? The dac's sound the same...right? Changing filters or adding colorations (like I can with my SU-9N) are the only way you can get two basically transparent dacs to sound dissimilar. So if both are clean in the aspects of human hearing - the deciding factors will be build quality, looks, feature set, and ergonomics. Seeing that I operate everything from my tablet or cellphone, ergonomics are taken care of. For me it's build quality - yes I like a little weight in my gear, looks, and then feature set. Hey, I might eventually go after a Pontus or a Venus...for one reason, full sized case (on the used market of course).

I mean you seem to be obsessed with how your gear looks and feels. That is your own thing and you are entitled to your feelings. The price for these products though is huge in comparison to the performance offered. Sure you managed to get one USED for a fraction of what its worth and instead you are trashing the SMSL for not being worth more used when you bought the Denafrips for a similar price reduction...
Feature set is the same on both products really, but the SMSL is already their expensive lineup which IMHO is priced too high for what it is in the first place. Comparing two products of vanity really is a pointless argument.

 

[beefkabob]

You say middling results, but the shortcomings are inaudible. So why bother with something that may feel cheaply built? The dac's sound the same...right? Changing filters or adding colorations (like I can with my SU-9N) are the only way you can get two basically transparent dacs to sound dissimilar. So if both are clean in the aspects of human hearing - the deciding factors will be build quality, looks, feature set, and ergonomics. Seeing that I operate everything from my tablet or cellphone, ergonomics are taken care of. For me it's build quality - yes I like a little weight in my gear, looks, and then feature set. Hey, I might eventually go after a Pontus or a Venus...for one reason, full sized case (on the used market of course).

Wow. Mining the deep cuts here.

Look at the list of DACs. Middling performance. Doesn't clear 105db. That's not a lot of margin for error, methinks. As for transparent, I'm not so sure. Maybe.

There's no rational reason to buy something engineered the hardest way possible for no real world benefit, including aesthetic (since the insides are hidden). Some, perhaps, like doing things the hard way as a creative exercise, but buying a product and using it to reproduce sound is not a creative exercise. Not even close.

 

[Jimster480]

Wow. Mining the deep cuts here.

Look at the list of DACs. Middling performance. Doesn't clear 105db. That's not a lot of margin for error, methinks. As for transparent, I'm not so sure. Maybe.

There's no rational reason to buy something engineered the hardest way possible for no real world benefit, including aesthetic (since the insides are hidden). Some, perhaps, like doing things the hard way as a creative exercise, but buying a product and using it to reproduce sound is not a creative exercise. Not even close.

Honestly, taking a look at the performance, I think it is going to be pretty much inaudible, but when I look at the linearity part of it, I would say personally that there would be some newer reported songs which would not have inaudible (perfect) performance on this R2R DAC.

 

[prerich]

Sure, subjective visuals is one thing. We are talking about subjective audio performance.

Yep, both will be transparent for the majority of music. There are very few tracks recorded with SINAD of more than 105.

I mean you seem to be obsessed with how your gear looks and feels. That is your own thing and you are entitled to your feelings. The price for these products though is huge in comparison to the performance offered. Sure you managed to get one USED for a fraction of what its worth and instead you are trashing the SMSL for not being worth more used when you bought the Denafrips for a similar price reduction...
Feature set is the same on both products really, but the SMSL is already their expensive lineup which IMHO is priced too high for what it is in the first place. Comparing two products of vanity really is a pointless argument.

I didn't trash the SMSL...it would have never made it into my rig if I thought it was trash, it just depreciates in value quickly. I do like the look and feel of gear. Once we're past audible performance - what else is there? The fantastic inexpensive gear becomes like computer printers, throwaway items. It's difficult to sell a dac or amp without a great loss. Currently I have gear I can sell and see little to no loss, it's like a Rolex or a Corvette...little depreciation.

 

[prerich]

Wow. Mining the deep cuts here.

Look at the list of DACs. Middling performance. Doesn't clear 105db. That's not a lot of margin for error, methinks. As for transparent, I'm not so sure. Maybe.

There's no rational reason to buy something engineered the hardest way possible for no real world benefit, including aesthetic (since the insides are hidden). Some, perhaps, like doing things the hard way as a creative exercise, but buying a product and using it to reproduce sound is not a creative exercise. Not even close.

Can I hear 105db...is it audible? They say most humans only can go to 80db. So it's inaudible...vanity of vanity...all is vanity

 

[Jimster480]

I didn't trash the SMSL...it would have never made it into my rig if I thought it was trash, it just depreciates in value quickly. I do like the look and feel of gear. Once we're past audible performance - what else is there? The fantastic inexpensive gear becomes like computer printers, throwaway items. It's difficult to sell a dac or amp without a great loss. Currently I have gear I can sell and see little to no loss, it's like a Rolex or a Corvette...little depreciation.

The DAC you bought had massive depreciation.
Rolex and Corvette have insane depreciation as well when you look at % value.... And both of those depreciate even more when you use them.

 

[prerich]

The DAC you bought had massive depreciation.
Rolex and Corvette have insane depreciation as well when you look at % value.... And both of those depreciate even more when you use them.

It's a value at the price I bought it, if you can find a deal. I want to keep with this thread about the Ares/Enyo as the new Enyo is selling for $850 +, used Ares II are still going for $625 + ...so I had little to lose by trying the Ares, and someone in my family will get good DAC in the SMSL on me. Once you get past audibly - there's really no stupid choice. Everyone has there vices...what they're willing to spend money on.

Ok..say I go with the SU-10, more than likely SMSL will out do that one in January or February...but I can't hear the difference...all I have is the technical satisfaction that it measures the best...but if I decide to sell it, I will have to discount it...heavily. The Ares ...buying at $500 shipped... don't see it going below that (as it would also cause depreciation of the Pontus, and Venus...Terminator may be immune for a few years). If you can keep well valued gear near mint, it tends to hold its value. In this day and age, used is the way to go, used car, used home, used system, let the first owner take the depreciation hit , buy gear that's well kept, you'll make out. I could sell my McIntosh boxes for $200

 

[Jimster480]

Can I hear 105db...is it audible? They say most humans only can go to 80db. So it's inaudible...vanity of vanity...all is vanity

80db? That's really bad... I could tell the difference between DACs up to around 105DB with specific tracks and headphones. However mostly that had to do with linearity. Which personally I think is more important than just the SINAD number.

It's a value at the price I bought it, if you can find a deal. I want to keep with this thread about the Ares/Enyo as the new Enyo is selling for $850 +, used Ares II are still going for $625 + ...so I had little to lose by trying the Ares, and someone in my family will get good DAC in the SMSL on me. Once you get past audibly - there's really no stupid choice. Everyone has there vices...what they're willing to spend money on.

Ok..say I go with the SU-10, more than likely SMSL will out do that one in January or February...but I can't hear the difference...all I have is the technical satisfaction that it measures the best...but if I decide to sell it, I will have to discount it...heavily. The Ares ...buying at $500 shipped... don't see it going below that (as it would also cause depreciation of the Pontus, and Venus...Terminator may be immune for a few years). If you can keep well valued gear near mint, it tends to hold its value. In this day and age, used is the way to go, used car, used home, used system, let the first owner take the depreciation hit , buy gear that's well kept, you'll make out. I could sell my McIntosh boxes for $200

The resale value of gear is only important if you plan to resell it. Since the gear has hit audibility thresholds then there would be no reason to resell it ever... I had a Topping DX7 gen1 for 5 years.... I replaced it with a used D70S after I broke the USB input... Even with the input broken I used it with a Toslink Adapter for another year until I moved and redid the system...
I have a D30 and A30 from back in the day... They aren't worth much but they also cost $100 when I bought them... I repurposed the D30 to make a cheap sound bar work better. It worked great until I stumbled on an amazing deal for the LG Flagship soundbar refurbished for nearly 75% off...
The only "extra" DAC I have right now is the SU-8S I got used for around $120...

I bet if I sell these few extras I have I can get back a decent amount of what I paid many years later.... Otherwise it doesn't matter much. If I bought real expensive stuff that I thought I was going to sell the I'd worry about resale more. However since my stuff is mostly cheaper, I just enjoy it and don't worry about the value...

 

[prerich]

80db? That's really bad... I could tell the difference between DACs up to around 105DB with specific tracks and headphones. However mostly that had to do with linearity. Which personally I think is more important than just the SINAD number.

The resale value of gear is only important if you plan to resell it. Since the gear has hit audibility thresholds then there would be no reason to resell it ever... I had a Topping DX7 gen1 for 5 years.... I replaced it with a used D70S after I broke the USB input... Even with the input broken I used it with a Toslink Adapter for another year until I moved and redid the system...
I have a D30 and A30 from back in the day... They aren't worth much but they also cost $100 when I bought them... I repurposed the D30 to make a cheap sound bar work better. It worked great until I stumbled on an amazing deal for the LG Flagship soundbar refurbished for nearly 75% off...
The only "extra" DAC I have right now is the SU-8S I got used for around $120...

I bet if I sell these few extras I have I can get back a decent amount of what I paid many years later.... Otherwise it doesn't matter much. If I bought real expensive stuff that I thought I was going to sell the I'd worry about resale more. However since my stuff is mostly cheaper, I just enjoy it and don't worry about the value...

There's always an "itch" to possibly resell. In the space of about 2 years, I went from the Gustard x-18, to the SU-9N, then the Denafrips. In the midst of the X-18 and the SU-9N I also sold a MiniDSP Flex for pennies. Hey...if you ever get the itch and I'm selling you need to hit me up !!!! I sold three Bagend M-6 monitors with custom Mercedes black auto paint for a meager $550 for all three...shipped!!!! Those sell for about $900 EACH!!!! I went after the wrong audience - as they're real studio passive monitors, should have went after the professional buyers...and they measure extremely flat.

 

[Rhamnetin]

Bumping this but I'm very surprised at how this DAC measured. I'm guessing Denafrips improved a lot between generations. I had the Venus a while ago which caused blatant treble rolloff in my system at the time, I perceived other significant issues as well in blind testing and this wasn't in NOS mode.

I had made this meme using one of their DACs but perhaps they don't deserve it. It should probably be TotalCRAPDAC instead.

 

[YSC]

Bumping this but I'm very surprised at how this DAC measured. I'm guessing Denafrips improved a lot between generations. I had the Venus a while ago which caused blatant treble rolloff in my system at the time, I perceived other significant issues as well in blind testing and this wasn't in NOS mode.

I had made this meme using one of their DACs but perhaps they don't deserve it. It should probably be TotalCRAPDAC instead.

I think maybe they did improve a lot, I am using a Holo Spring 2 and it sounded/measured great also. There might be another explaination of your discrepancy.
Quite some Chinese brands are know to sell the units with good quality found during QC via overseas platforms or dealers, since those consumers are more likely to complain or giving bad reviews, while those units failing the QC test for say, distortion or channel balance issues will just sell at Taobao or similar in domestic market, sometimes maybe at a slightly cheaper cost claiming the reason being it's domestic product, but in reality they just quote the review and data for good units shipping overseas disguising the poorer quality units

 

[BitPerfect_]

For those who own an Ares II DAC, is there an possibility to read the bit depth (16-bit / 24-bit )?
In the user manual we have a chart about the way we should read the sampling rate, but not the bit depth. Please correct me if I'm wrong. Thanks.

 

[Artzox]

Is anyone using the 3.14 usb volume driver, does it allow for volume attenuation of dsd without conversion to pcm?
Thanks

 

[voodooless]

Is anyone using the 3.14 usb volume driver, does it allow for volume attenuation of dsd without conversion to pcm?

That is impossible. You cannot attenuate DSD in the digital domain without conversion to PCM.

 

[Artzox]

That is impossible. You cannot attenuate DSD in the digital domain without conversion to PCM.

Thanks, assumed as much, so essentially would be the same as converting to pcm and attenuation digitally, as is the case in Roon.

 

[Jeschiotz]

Bought mine used for around 600 dollars. Uploaded the newest firmware before I even tried it. Connected it to my stereo and to my surprise I got a noise level on one output. This is on all inputs and I need to crank amp volum high up. Its like noisy like a Riaa amp. Next thing,its gone! So switch off and restart after 5 nin its there again before puff, its gone. So when getting warmed up its ok. Anyone have this?