DACs that better compensate for noise

[Jimbob54]

depends on your definition....i am certainly not a "groupie", but i actually do find it refreshing to find people exist on the total opposite of the spectrum where people on the "other site" seem to believe that everything matters even to the point of building $3K computers to squeeze supposed "wow" moments. To be honest, i have a hard time believing either side, and believe the truth lies somewhere in the middle but much closer to this side than the other side. I will "never" start using the word "we" though like seems so popular here.....

Some of us are just skinflints.

 

[wineandmusic]

Some of us are just skinflints.

i am too, and it would have to be a noticeable or truly a wow moment (not just "i think it sounds better), for me to pony up more than a grand for a dac.

The upcoming gustard a18 looks interesting, and I would pony up for a Qutest if it could offer a very noticeable difference, and right now, my thinking is, IF any dac could do it under $2k, it is likely the only one that could.

 

[Frank Dernie]

depends on your definition....i am certainly not a "groupie", but i actually do find it refreshing to find people exist on the total opposite of the spectrum where people on the "other site" seem to believe that everything matters even to the point of building $3K computers to squeeze supposed "wow" moments. To be honest, i have a hard time believing either side, and believe the truth lies somewhere in the middle but much closer to this side than the other side. I will "never" start using the word "we" though like seems so popular here..... At least the other side has cleaned up their act a lot regarding mature responses.

You can check it for yourself.
You need a voltmeter to make sure the levels are the same and somebody to change the source/DAC whilst you aren't watching and see if you still hear a difference.
I thought I would but didn't. I have spent well over a hundred grand on hifi too.
I do hear differences between microphones and microphone position (when recording), speakers, speaker location and headphones but DACs no.
That is me, what I recommend is you do a level matched test yourself with instant switching, informal listening ends up confusing the issue.
It is easy to get swept along by the "everything makes a difference" bunch but is the difference at audible level? IMHO no.
If I play pink noise at -15dB and adjust the volume to my normal listening level then play pink noise at -75dB it is very, very quiet. I can not imagine being able to hear something at -75dB added to music at normal level.

 

[Jimbob54]

i am too, and it would have to be a noticeable or truly a wow moment (not just "i think it sounds better), for me to pony up more than a grand for a dac.

The upcoming gustard a18 looks interesting, and I would pony up for a Qutest if it could offer a very noticeable difference, and right now, my thinking is, IF any dac could do it under $2k, it is likely the only one that could.

And I think the point many have been making, if you were to borrow one, plug it in and press play, you WOULD hear a big difference.

 

[wineandmusic]

You can check it for yourself.
You need a voltmeter to make sure the levels are the same and somebody to change the source/DAC whilst you aren't watching and see if you still hear a difference.
I thought I would but didn't. I have spent well over a hundred grand on hifi too.
I do hear differences between microphones and microphone position (when recording), speakers, speaker location and headphones but DACs no.
That is me, what I recommend is you do a level matched test yourself with instant switching, informal listening ends up confusing the issue.
It is easy to get swept along by the "everything makes a difference" bunch but is the difference at audible level? IMHO no.
If I play pink noise at -15dB and adjust the volume to my normal listening level then play pink noise at -75dB it is very, very quiet. I can not imagine being able to hear something at -75dB added to music at normal level.

Again, this stuff doesn't really matter to me. Because I am happy with "good enough". If nothing provides a repeatable recognizable difference, then it is not worth the upgrade. If I would need to do such testing to hear a difference, then it clearly is not worth the difference in price to me....so no real need to waste my time...

 

[pkane]

you are a funny guy....you think it is untrue that i don't care what you think, or that it is untrue that I am unbiased?
As i have stated, I will spend more time trying to consider the possibility that there is no difference whether streaming dsd or playing out my windows USB. I certainly hope that I will not be able to identify differences...so it doesn't get much less biased than that.

Perhaps you don’t fully understand the effect of bias. It’s not something you can control or decide to have or not. It’s a subconscious process. To declare that you’re unbiased is equivalent to saying that you’re not human.

Take a look at my BIAS study thread on AS, maybe it’ll help clarify what bias does to audio comparisons.

 

[wineandmusic]

And I think the point many have been making, if you were to borrow one, plug it in and press play, you WOULD hear a big difference.

I doubt that, given that i have already tried over a dozen dacs and none have been appreciable yet.

 

[wineandmusic]

Perhaps you don’t fully understand the effect of bias. It’s not something you can control or decide to have or not. It’s a subconscious process. To declare that you’re unbiased is equivalent to saying that you’re not human.

Take a look at my BIAS study thread on AS, maybe it’ll help clarify what bias does to audio comparisons.

Perhaps i used the wrong word...as i agree everyone has bias about everything. I should have just stated I believe I am more open minded.

 

[Jimbob54]

I doubt that, given that i have already tried over a dozen dacs and none have been appreciable yet.

So to go right back to the start, your assertion is, you don't notice appreciable differences between different dacs, but you do notice based on whether the same dac is fed from a pc via USB vs from a streamer?

 

[Frank Dernie]

Again, this stuff doesn't really matter to me. Because I am happy with "good enough". If nothing provides a repeatable recognizable difference, then it is not worth the upgrade. If I would need to do such testing to hear a difference, then it clearly is not worth the difference in price to me....so no real need to waste my time...

You have answered your own question then.
Spend the money on speakers, or if you have no place to put them, headphones.

 

[Willem]

The 1K RME ADI-2 is already significantly better than human hearing acuity, so no need to spend more (2K for a DAC is waste of money). It also has wonderful extra features like tone and balance control, dynamic loudness, and some parametric filters. If you can do without the extra features and are happy with somewhat less build quality and support, you can have a sonically perfect Chinese DAC for a lot less.
There is indeed no need to waste your time, as we have been trying to say. There is enough scientific research to know the limits of human hearing. So if a DAC measures better than that there is no point in worrying about sound quality. Perfect is perfect and is defined in relation to those limits of human hearing.

 

[solderdude]

For example, I am unable to even hear a certain background instrument at all when i use a dragonfly on an mp3, no matter how loud i turn it up, where the same instrument is vivid playing natively on a dsd track over ethernet, and i can hear it when it is downsampled to play on a usb dac, but not as vivid. If I can pick out that instrument without knowing what is connected with consistency, that is proof enough for me.

I am open to believe I am incorrect, so i will work to either better prove or disprove it to myself.

Consider the masters could be different.

 

[wineandmusic]

Don’t be so sure. At the very least make sure that levels are properly matched, since DSD and PCM playback is usually at different output levels. If you don’t have these properly adjusted, your comparisons will be invalid, even if done blind.

Although i don't get out a voltmeter, i listen for "differences in amplitude". Like if i put the loudest part of the music at the level that is most comfortable to "my" hearing, and then listen for the faint background instrument at it's highest and lowest volume levels and how much they differ. This is just what i do, and it is only for my own purposes...it is sufficient for me...but of course no one else.

 

[wineandmusic]

Consider the masters could be different.

I will try again, downsampling same file.

 

[solderdude]

So if you "weed out" based on those 2 measurements, and only look at the dacs in the "green zone", then they will all sound the same and are all accurate?

in a blind test yes, in a sighted test there will be obvious differences.

 

[LTig]

Believe me I have done hundreds if not thousands of comparison testings. I have had probably 5000 different pieces of gear go through my hands in the last 10 years, and i have pronounced on numerous occasions that only speakers have made any dramatic difference with amplifiers being a second, and i have heard very little differences in dacs....but i still contend that playing native dsd over ethernet or from an sacd player bests the sound of playing out my windows pc....I buy and sell used stereo equipment, which is how i got into the hobby in the first place...but i will reserve the possibility that they sound the same until i can point to a place on a track where i can repeatedly tell the difference. I am not going to buy special equipment or take the painstakenly effort to "professionally" a/b two products and need only convince myself, but i will make it an effort to see if i can find a track and time where i can repeatedly tell a difference.

Read this thread to find out how I and others have fooled ourselves. Maybe you reconsider not making a painstakenly effort.

 

[solderdude]

I will try again, downsampling same file.

Then perhaps you are not using the correct settings or resampler.

 

[wineandmusic]

The 1K RME ADI-2 is already significantly better than human hearing acuity, so no need to spend more (2K for a DAC is waste of money). It also has wonderful extra features like tone and balance control, dynamic loudness, and some parametric filters. If you can do without the extra features and are happy with somewhat less build quality and support, you can have a sonically perfect Chinese DAC for a lot less.
There is indeed no need to waste your time, as we have been trying to say. There is enough scientific research to know the limits of human hearing. So if a DAC measures better than that there is no point in worrying about sound quality. Perfect is perfect and is defined in relation to those limits of human hearing.

I don't argue this point. But the benefit of buying and returning one would be that I can say i tried it and don't understand the "hoopla" surrounding it. I have done this many times....and right now, the qutest is the only dac that I think may have some potential.

 

[wineandmusic]

Then perhaps you are not using the correct settings or resampler.

I will try again, and try to convince myself they sound the same...believe me, i certainly hope that i can, as i would prefer to just use my regular everyday windows computer for everything.

 

[solderdude]

Qutest and chords in general seem to use different technology than most, and my guess that would sound the most different compared to other dacs.

That could be your opinion but Chord DACs do not fall in the category I mentioned.