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DacMagicPlus Filter Mirror Images - Short Study

NTK

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I was thinking Red one because it Cuts Fs/2 off. But then im wondering why purple is standard.
I believe the reasoning for almost all DAC manufacturer's to choose the stop band at 0.546 Fs is this (see the left hand graph and ignore the right):

With Fs=44.1 kHz, we have F_nyquist=22.05 kHz and F_stop=24.08 kHz. So the significant part of the images that get reflected are from 22.05 kHz to 22.05 - (24.08 - 22.05) = 20.02 kHz. Therefore, any leakages back into the audible band of <20 kHz are reduced to below the stop band attenuation spec., and therefore all is good.

DAC Filter.JPG
 

AnalogSteph

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Discussion of ADC anti-alias filters has generally involved 48 kHz though (a much more common sample rate in recording applications), which would move 18.3 kHz up to 19.9 kHz, and all is well again when using the sharp rolloff filter. The slow rolloff filter obviously is not intended for these low sample rates at all, but rather something to be used at 88.2/96 kHz. And arguably, best results with AK557x/AK555x are obtained at 384 / 768 kHz anyway. Their filters are more optimized for low group delay (19/fs at single speed). I think they've overdone it a bit there, passband ripple still isn't super low at 192 kHz (you're probably best off using the "short delay" - IIR - version of the sharp rolloff filter then).

If you just want best results at 48 or even 44.1 kHz, stick with "classic" parts like AK5394A or PCM4220 or something (stopband ~0.5465 fs ~= 24100 Hz @ 44.1 kHz). The AK5394A filter has a group delay of 63/fs, that's a whopping 1.3 ms at 48 kHz. (PCM4220: 39/fs "classic", 21/fs "low GD".) If what @Dave Tremblay says is true and some performers are sensitive to as low as 3 ms of roundtrip delay (A/D + processing + D/A), then that's definitely not negligible in a professional recording application.
 
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bennetng

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Mnyb

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That depends on your requirements, which is why there are choices in the first place.

Why do we need choices for the audio DAC application ? As end users. That’s for the DAC designers, it’s especially confusing as for reasonable filters no one hears the difference anyway ? It’s becomes a phsyco acoustic knob to twiddle ?
There is a thing in audiophile community to experiment with filters software to much and sure you can end up with clearly audible differences with weird enough settings , but thats a job for your EQ software , the reconstruction filter has one job to do . And the DAC designer should know his job.
 
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restorer-john

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Why do we need choices for the audio DAC application ? As end users. That’s for the DAC designers, it’s especially confusing as for reasonable filters no one hears the difference anyway ? It’s becomes a phsyco acoustic knob to twiddle ?

You don't need choices. Nobody complained for the best part of 20 years with CD as a source. Of course there were arguments over IIR vs FIR and pre-ringing vs none, but I can't remember seeing any selectable filters until SACD came along.

Actually, come to think of it, I do remember Yamaha having a filter bypass option on the CD-4/5050 CD player. It basically switched out part of the LPF. That was the late 1980s (circa '88ish). So, it's been going on forever...

1613809543353.png
 

Doodski

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You don't need choices. Nobody complained for the best part of 20 years with CD as a source. Of course there were arguments over IIR vs FIR and pre-ringing vs none, but I can't remember seeing any selectable filters until SACD came along.

Actually, come to think of it, I do remember Yamaha having a filter bypass option on the CD-4/5050 CD player. It basically switched out part of the LPF. That was the late 1980s (circa '88ish). So, it's been going on forever...

View attachment 113700
I remember that feature. It was a pain in the butt trying to explain it to customers when the sound difference was nil. :D
 

Mnyb

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You don't need choices. Nobody complained for the best part of 20 years with CD as a source. Of course there were arguments over IIR vs FIR and pre-ringing vs none, but I can't remember seeing any selectable filters until SACD came along.

Actually, come to think of it, I do remember Yamaha having a filter bypass option on the CD-4/5050 CD player. It basically switched out part of the LPF. That was the late 1980s (circa '88ish). So, it's been going on forever...

View attachment 113700

I clearly remember some Sony CD player model having selectable filters , one of their later high end offerings with a platter to place the CD on. Sorry I cant remember the model i friend had one 20 years ago
 

restorer-john

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I clearly remember some Sony CD player model having selectable filters , one of their later high end offerings with a platter to place the CD on. Sorry I cant remember the model i friend had one 20 years ago

The CDP-XAxxx series, yes, you are right.
 

mansr

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Why do we need choices for the audio DAC application ? As end users. That’s for the DAC designers, it’s especially confusing as for reasonable filters no one hears the difference anyway ? It’s becomes a phsyco acoustic knob to twiddle ?
The DAC chips have choices because there are applications where it matters, and it's cheaper to make a single chip with selectable filters than to manage inventory of multiple pre-programmed versions. Given this situation, offering the tweaker crowd something to play with takes very little effort. Once one manufacturer starts doing it, the rest pretty much have to follow in order to maintain "feature" parity.

And the DAC designer should know his job.
His job is to make things that sell. If having more knobs sells, they'll add more knobs.
 

pjug

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I believe the reasoning for almost all DAC manufacturer's to choose the stop band at 0.546 Fs is this (see the left hand graph and ignore the right):

With Fs=44.1 kHz, we have F_nyquist=22.05 kHz and F_stop=24.08 kHz. So the significant part of the images that get reflected are from 22.05 kHz to 22.05 - (24.08 - 22.05) = 20.02 kHz. Therefore, any leakages back into the audible band of <20 kHz are reduced to below the stop band attenuation spec., and therefore all is good.

View attachment 113569
That TI graphic looks like discussion of ADC, not reconstruction. Am I misunderstanding something? Do you have a link to the document?
 

bennetng

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Why do we need choices for the audio DAC application ? As end users. That’s for the DAC designers, it’s especially confusing as for reasonable filters no one hears the difference anyway ? It’s becomes a phsyco acoustic knob to twiddle ?
There is a thing in audiophile community to experiment with filters software to much and sure you can end up with clearly audible differences with weird enough settings , but thats a job for your EQ software , the reconstruction filter has one job to do . And the DAC designer should know his job.
Like what I mentioned on the first few pages of this thread, measurements and various quotes from some authorities won't make sense without involving listening and psychoacoustics. There are indeed some audio formats with configurable filtering options and the differences are really audible by everyone, and these settings are applied to the format decoder, not on the DAC.
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ds/software-players-filters.16488/post-533870
 

NTK

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That TI graphic looks like discussion of ADC, not reconstruction. Am I misunderstanding something? Do you have a link to the document?
The graphics is indeed from a TI ADC presentation. The D/A process is similar, but with the (normally assumed) guarantee that the digital input is 'properly sampled' (i.e. meet the band-limiting requirement of the sampling theorem). Here is some similar DAC graphics from Maxim that also shows the reconstruction filter roll-off starts at Fs/2.

3853fig01.png
 

pjug

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The graphics is indeed from a TI ADC presentation. The D/A process is similar, but with the (normally assumed) guarantee that the digital input is 'properly sampled' (i.e. meet the band-limiting requirement of the sampling theorem). Here is some similar DAC graphics from Maxim that also shows the reconstruction filter roll-off starts at Fs/2.

View attachment 113861
Got it. So then we are back to the filter being fine if the digitizing is limited to below ~0.46*fs (and probably still fine otherwise since low levels would be expected at these freqs anyway). But if there is content approaching fs/2 then having more attenuation at fs/2 makes sense, and so OP has a point that this would be a better tradeoff. Sorry, I know all this was discussed already but I was hoping that we weren't deciding the debate on this point was won by the chip makers.
 
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pma

pma

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But if there is content approaching fs then having more attenuation at fs/2 makes sense

It seems you still misunderstood? Not if there is a content approaching to fs, BUT to fs/2. Please re-read the post #1 again. If, for example, the fs = 48kHz and fs/2 = 24kHz then perfectly valid 23kHz signal creates a 48 - 23 = 25kHz mirror image if there is not enough attenuation at 25kHz. The only way to avoid mirror images is to have enough attenuation <=fs/2, otherwise the mirrors and beats are unavoidable. This is a technical issue, so let's not argue by musical frequency content.
 

mansr

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The graphics is indeed from a TI ADC presentation. The D/A process is similar, but with the (normally assumed) guarantee that the digital input is 'properly sampled' (i.e. meet the band-limiting requirement of the sampling theorem).
A discrete-time (sampled, digital) signal by definition can't contain any frequencies above fs/2.
 

mansr

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It seems you still misunderstood? Not if there is a content approaching to fs, BUT to fs/2. Please re-read the post #1 again. If, for example, the fs = 48kHz and fs/2 = 24kHz then perfectly valid 23kHz signal creates a 48 - 23 = 25kHz mirror image if there is not enough attenuation at 25kHz. The only way to avoid mirror images is to have enough attenuation <=fs/2, otherwise the mirrors and beats are unavoidable. This is a technical issue, so let's not argue by musical frequency content.
The image at 25 kHz is inaudible. It can only become a problem if the input content just below Nyquist is sufficiently strong that intermodulation with the images reaches audible levels. That's not going to happen with music. There is thus no problem. If it was a problem, intermodulation between perfectly legal frequencies near fs/2 would already be making a dog's breakfast of things.
 

pjug

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It seems you still misunderstood? Not if there is a content approaching to fs, BUT to fs/2. Please re-read the post #1 again. If, for example, the fs = 48kHz and fs/2 = 24kHz then perfectly valid 23kHz signal creates a 48 - 23 = 25kHz mirror image if there is not enough attenuation at 25kHz. The only way to avoid mirror images is to have enough attenuation <=fs/2, otherwise the mirrors and beats are unavoidable. This is a technical issue, so let's not argue by musical frequency content.
That was just a typo. Thanks for pointing it out and I will edit. So I was agreeing with the rest of what you say. Also, I think most of us agree with what @mansr says above. And at the same time I agree with you that more attenuation at fs/2 would be better engineering.
 
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bennetng

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So here is a filter that looks a lot better. The passband looks good to beyond 19.5KHz, minimal attenuation at 20KHz. Why shouldn't this be the "standard" sharp filter?

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ds600-measurements-filter-usb-dac-png.104266/

View attachment 113944
Several times stronger passband ripple and about 20dB poorer stopband attenuation. BTW, the screenshot you showed looks like the Hybrid one (intermediate phase) rather than Brickwall (linear phase). Should be Apodizing fast roll off. I was blind.
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...-d30pro-review-balanced-dac.20259/post-668061
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...u-m2-review-audio-interface.19911/post-674665

Passband ripple can be identified by zooming the Y-axis (dB). White noise like your screenshot is not the best signal to identify passband ripple, better use sweep or multitone.
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...tests-welcome-to-add-others.16332/post-533137
 
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