DAC subjective?? frequency response

[Quizel]

So, something has been bothering me quite a bit over the years. Often I hear or read reviews on amps and dacs that they're dark, forward, warm, recessed, ect. But when I look at the frequency response, it's basically perfectly flat except a tiny bit at the ends.

Are they just trying to make the product sound good/bad or is there any truth to what they're saying? The only thing I could think of is output impedance issues (when reviewing amps) but that's rarely the case I think.

 

[M00ndancer]

Most/all properly designed DACs sound the same. They do not measure 100% the same but is audibly transparent.
Price and performance do not correlate. Most of the subjective reviews is just subjective and have no real info how the DAC/amp sounds.
Our brain is stupid and our hearing is really bad.
Read this tread:
DAC types and their sonic signature

 

[THW]

Our brain is stupid and our hearing is really bad.
Read this tread:
DAC types and their sonic signature

Our brain can be tricked, true, but I wouldn’t go so far as to call it “stupid”

It has its quirks for sure but I think it is also pretty cool how the brain can intuitively reject unwanted aural information and allows you to focus on the important bits

But yes, I do agree that for the purpose of evaluating actual sound quality, the brain is better off taking a back seat

 

[twsecrest]

Two ways I've heard for describing a DAC's sound.
One way is describing a DAC as having a musical/warm sound.
Another way described as a more detailed sound.
With a detailed DAC, your more likely to hear imperfections in the audio recording, where as a more musical/warm DAC might hid the imperfections in the audio.
Me, I'm more into detailed audio.

 

[Blumlein 88]

Our perceived balance can be effected by as little as .1 or .2 db per octave tilt if it covers a couple octaves or more. It is possible a little droop or boost of that on each end can alter the heard balance a little bit. However, most subjective reviews simply are influenced by other factors, and once the reviewer has clued himself into a dark, or detail or midrange sound he'll hear it with the DAC he is reviewing. This could be the color of the unit, or something in marketing it about its goals or any number of things. Rarely will such sighted subjective evaluations have much connection with actual response of the gear being reviewed.

 

[THW]

This could be the color of the unit

Damn that reminds me, I actually was browsing the store page for Dragon Cables some time back, and noticed how the store page description of the “sound signature” of their different cables has an uncomfortable correlation with the colour of the cables

The darker coloured cables seemingly having a “darker” sound signature, brighter coloured ones having a “brighter” sound signature, etc

 

[Quizel]

Thanks everyone for your responses. It gives me more confidence when talking/thinking about this sort of stuff.

Our perceived balance can be effected by as little as .1 or .2 db per octave tilt if it covers a couple octaves or more.

Fair point but often the way reviewers describe what they are hearing it's more than simply perceptible and more like you can't miss it (as you went on to explain).

I just wanted to make sure I wasn't saying something stupid when talking about this stuff since I don't own a lot of high end gear. My headphone amp that I use is one I made myself. It wasn't cheap and at times I feel like I should just got something like the JDS labs Atom to be sure I'm hearing what I'm suppose to be hearing. Granted, I'm happy for now and I think that is what matters most.

 

[Quizel]

Damn that reminds me, I actually was browsing the store page for Dragon Cables some time back, and noticed how the store page description of the “sound signature” of their different cables has an uncomfortable correlation with the colour of the cables

The darker coloured cables seemingly having a “darker” sound signature, brighter coloured ones having a “brighter” sound signature, etc

lol

 

[solderdude]

So, something has been bothering me quite a bit over the years. Often I hear or read reviews on amps and dacs that they're dark, forward, warm, recessed, ect. But when I look at the frequency response, it's basically perfectly flat except a tiny bit at the ends.

Are they just trying to make the product sound good/bad or is there any truth to what they're saying? The only thing I could think of is output impedance issues (when reviewing amps) but that's rarely the case I think.

Measurements and sighted evaluations simply don't have a clear relation.
I think every manufacturer at least tries to build good sounding products... in each price range they have.

It's the humans evaluating the systems and the sound quality of the used recordings, while knowing what is playing that 'creates' the perceived sound differences.
Add the fact that the reports of different sounding components (vinyl, speaker and headphone as well as specific power amps exempt) all seem to come from sighted 'tests' speaks volumes.
On the rare occasions that someone decides to test with rigor these perceived differences do not seem to be there. And when there are they are quite measurable and provable as well.

The most fun are digital and interlink cable evaluations which are really easy to test 'correctly' and when this is done no one can hear a difference.
When tested sighted it appears as though bass becomes tighter or better extended or mids pop out or clarity improves, treble becomes 'smoother' or sound becomes more 'analog'. Strangely enough digital cables seem to show exactly the same 'effects' yet the signals going through them couid possibly not be any different yet the audible effects are similar ?

One can pretty safely ignore most sighted equipment evaluations. That only leaves very few well performed evaluations that are really usable when it comes to objectively more accurate evaluations.

I need to add that some characters state their tests were 'blind' but even 'blind' tests can be as poor as sighted when not all essential conditions are met.
For instance when the levels are not matched. In this case even a nearly deaf person can hear obvious differences.

 

[BDWoody]

So, something has been bothering me quite a bit over the years. Often I hear or read reviews on amps and dacs that they're dark, forward, warm, recessed, ect. But when I look at the frequency response, it's basically perfectly flat except a tiny bit at the ends.

Are they just trying to make the product sound good/bad or is there any truth to what they're saying? The only thing I could think of is output impedance issues (when reviewing amps) but that's rarely the case I think.

If you think of most of those subjective reviews as being nothing more than a sales presentation, you will be closer to reality. Their job is to make you feel like you must be missing out on something, then tell you what it is.

I think it's safe to ignore DAC listening tests (assuming it meets some basic threshold measurements, and not talking about headphone amps). It should be transparent. If it could be picked out easily (as is often claimed) it's probably broken.

Warm, cool, revealing, detailed, etc...It's all pulled out of their posterior orifice.

 

[rwortman]

You can almost predict the review by how much the device costs and what it looks like. Every time I read a DAC review that mentions how much better its bass performance is compared to another I just smile. Usually it’s attributed to the DAC that looks brawniest. Same thing with music lacking “drive” with passive volume controls vs active preamps. A reviewer said it once so now everyone “hears” it. Both present the same voltage to the amp and the passive is probably cleaner.

 

[graz_lag]

If you think of most of those subjective reviews as being nothing more than a sales presentation, you will be closer to reality. Their job is to make you feel like you must be missing out on something, then tell you what it is.

I think it's safe to ignore DAC listening tests (assuming it meets some basic threshold measurements, and not talking about headphone amps). It should be transparent. If it could be picked out easily (as is often claimed) it's probably broken.

Warm, cool, revealing, detailed, etc...It's all pulled out of their posterior orifice.

Example, taken from the Sabaj D5 Amazon.com list of reviews:

 

[SIY]

Je n'ai pas trouvé cela utile. Triste!

 

[Quizel]

Example, taken from the Sabaj D5 Amazon.com list of reviews:

View attachment 31733

Well, what if this individual was plugging the headphones directly into the Khadas tone board . It all makes sense. At the very least reading stuff like this puts a smile on my face.

 

[maxxevv]

Well, what if this individual was plugging the headphones directly into the Khadas tone board . It all makes sense. At the very least reading stuff like this puts a smile on my face.

LoL ....

Obviously someone who doesn't understand what he/she was doing with the equipment to begin with.

 

[Invalidtoday]

I read an article a couple of years ago that said two magazine reviewers were at an audio show and could not only tell the difference between speaker cables but could also tell you what cable they were listening through in a blind test.

 

[Sal1950]

I read an article a couple of years ago that said two magazine reviewers were at an audio show and could not only tell the difference between speaker cables but could also tell you what cable they were listening through in a blind test.

Oh I wouldn't say it's impossible, a really poorly designed cable could cause FR changes and more.
But there's only 2 ways that can happen, the designer is an idiot, or he does this on purpose to give his cable a "house" sound.
But any $10 cable should be able to get things right, they're not brain surgery and the important points of the design have been known for close to 100 years.

 

[SIY]

I read an article a couple of years ago that said two magazine reviewers were at an audio show and could not only tell the difference between speaker cables but could also tell you what cable they were listening through in a blind test.

There you go, must be true! It was in an article!

 

[Sal1950]

I read an article a couple of years ago that said two magazine reviewers were at an audio show and could not only tell the difference between speaker cables but could also tell you what cable they were listening through in a blind test.

BTW, did you notice this threads over a year old? LOL

 

[Invalidtoday]

I knew this thread was over a year old just wanted to see how fast the vultures would respond.