[DAC battle] E30 vs M300 mkII, along with L30

[Jose Hidalgo]

Hi guys,

Judging from Amir's measurements, Topping L30 seems like an unbeatable deal for 139 €. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't see any HP amp coming even close, unless we pay wayyy more money. Plus despite its small size, it has enough power to drive even difficult cans.

On the DAC side now, the Topping E30 seems like a natural match for the L30. Its measurements are great too, in Amir's "top quarter", but unlike the L30, they're not "best in its class". In other words, the E30 could be slightly improved, if not for the ears, at least for peace of mind.

That got me wondering about E30 alternatives in its price range. Well, we know the usual suspects (Schiit, etc.), but for 129 € the E30 seems hard to beat. However for 209 € we have the SMSL M300 mkII that seems to perform even better, having significantly better measurements (e.g. 118 dB SINAD against 112, or 124 dB dynamic range against 117), which seem closer and more consistent with the amazing L30 measurements. After all, a chain is only as strong as the weakest of its links, right ? Plus the M300 mkII has twice as power output (4 Vrms against 2).

So, E30 vs M300 mkII. Is it a fair battle ? I don't know, since the M300 mkII is more expensive. But only by 80 €, so it may be fair to compare them after all. Are there even other alternatives ?

Judging from measurements, is the M300 mkII worth the extra 80 € ? And would it pair just as well with the L30 ? Has any of you tried this ?
Total budget would then be 348 € (139 + 209) instead of 268. What would you do ?...

 

[JohnYang1997]

Multitone.

 

[Jose Hidalgo]

John, first of all I don't understand your reply. Care to elaborate ? And second, in this topic I wouldn't expect interventions from any Topping OR SMSL representatives, as they could eventually be biased. Unless we're only talking about facts and figures (measurements) of course. Thank you.

 

[Eetu]

John, first of all I don't understand your reply. And second, in this topic I wouldn't expect interventions from any Topping OR SMSL representatives, as they could eventually be biased. Unless we're only talking about facts and figures (measurements) of course. Thank you.

He meant that the M300 did a lot worse on the multitone test than the E30

 

[Jose Hidalgo]

Thanks Eetu. Yes, I noticed that. But it dit significantly better in most other tests. That's actually why I opened this topic. Because if the M300 had done better than the E30 in all the tests, the answer would be obvious and I wouldn't need to open a topic. So I guess we should talk about the relative importance of the tests. Should multitone (@-110 to -130 dB roughly) matter more than SINAD + Distortion + Power output combined ?

I hope we can discuss fairly on these two DACs, which are BOTH excellent choices. So saying that one may be slightly better than the other doesn't mean that the other one suck. To pair with my L30, I may end up getting a M300 mkII, just like I may end getting a E30 (provided they become available in blue/red in the near future: I don't want to wait until Christmas for that, as the M300 mkII is already available in such colors).

 

[Jimbob54]

John, first of all I don't understand your reply. Care to elaborate ? And second, in this topic I wouldn't expect interventions from any Topping OR SMSL representatives, as they could eventually be biased. Unless we're only talking about facts and figures (measurements) of course. Thank you.

He is talking about measurements . Look at the multitone charts on the reviews of the 2 DACs. But the main point is - these are both transparent DACs so the choice comes down to features, build, appearance , availability and price. PAys your money, take your choice.

 

[JohnYang1997]

Thanks Eetu. Yes, I noticed that. But it dit significantly better in most other tests. That's actually why I opened this topic. Because if the M300 had done better than the E30 in all the tests, the answer would be obvious and I wouldn't need to open a topic. So I guess we should talk about the relative importance of the tests. Should multitone (@-110 to -130 dB roughly) matter more than SINAD + Distortion + Power output combined ?

I hope we can discuss fairly on these two DACs, which are BOTH excellent choices. So saying that one may be slightly better than the other doesn't mean that the other one suck. To pair with my L30, I may end up getting a M300 mkII, just like I may end getting a E30 (provided they become available in blue/red in the near future: I don't want to wait until Christmas for that, as the M300 mkII is already available in such colors).

If you are going to utilize the balanced output of M300 mkii then it can be a very good option. But its RCA output performance much worse. Also Wolf's measurements are done at 20KHz BW where Amir's are with 22KHz BW. So the SINAD number will look better on Wolf's.
To pair with L30 I don't think there's a different choice. If you want to use Balanced connection I think Schiit Magnius and Modius stack is a very good option.

 

[JohnYang1997]

Another thing is that unless you listen over 0dB full volume, what matters is just the amp. How good the amp preserves the performance of the DAC is the most important thing. The DAC plays much less of a role in the system.

 

[Jose Hidalgo]

Thanks John, that's a fair answer, well argumented, and I really appreciate.
When I created this topic, the L30 was a sure choice for me at 100%, and the E30 was at maybe 60-80%.

It's true that the M300 mkII has balanced output and fancy features (BT, a pretty display, font color, etc.). But I'm not intending to use balanced output, as the L30 doesn't have balanced input. I'd have to move all the way up to the A90, and M300 + A90 would be wayyy over my budget.

So for RCA use, I guess the E30 still remains the better choice. Nice play, Topping ! I guess I'll keep waiting for its blue/red availability. Actually if it were already available I would have already ordered everything, and this topic wouldn't even exist (that's the risk about announcing a product and not having it available shortly afterwards ). Fingers crossed !

PS : I have read Magnius reviews in the past : great performance, but it really looks terrible (all cheap plastic), so that's a no-go for me.

 

[Eetu]

Thanks John, that's a fair answer, well argumented, and I really appreciate.
When I created this topic, the L30 was a sure choice for me at 100%, and the E30 was at maybe 60-80%.

It's true that the M300 mkII has balanced output and fancy features (BT, a pretty display, font color, etc.). But I'm not intending to use balanced output, as the L30 doesn't have balanced input. I'd have to move all the way up to the A90, and M300 + A90 would be wayyy over my budget.

So for RCA use, I guess the E30 still remains the better choice. Nice play, Topping ! I guess I'll keep waiting for its blue/red availability. Actually if it were already available I would have already ordered everything, and this topic wouldn't even exist (that's the risk about announcing a product and not having it available shortly afterwards ). Fingers crossed !

PS : I have read Magnius reviews in the past : great performance, but it really looks terrible (all cheap plastic), so that's a no-go for me.

Yeah, as you said I would consider the M300 mkii if XLR is a must but for SE the E30 is a no-brainer. I think the Modius/Magnius is a really nice looking stack though, they're metal not plastic?? We're spoilt with pretty great options nowadays.

 

[Jose Hidalgo]

Oh, all right, maybe it's metal then : https://headfonics.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/schiit-magnius.jpg
But I really don't like it. IMHO it looks like it has been designed graphically by a first-year design school student. I mean, it screams "cheap" from all angles, lol (this is a personal opinion of course, and I've designed products in the past). I know that this is not supposed to be about looks, but there are some products I'd still veto for that reason, and this is one of them.
As for XLR, I wish there was a HP amp as good as the L30 and wiht XLR inputs, for a similar price. But that may be too much to ask. Maybe in a future Topping L30s, s meaning symmetric ? But the L30 is so small (10 cm width) that it may be difficult to even accomodate 2 XLR in the back, so...

 

[Berwhale]

Oh, all right, maybe it's metal then : https://headfonics.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/schiit-magnius.jpg
But I really don't like it. IMHO it looks like it has been designed graphically by a first-year design school student. I mean, it screams "cheap" from all angles, lol (this is a personal opinion of course, and I've designed products in the past). I know that this is not supposed to be about looks, but there are some products I'd still veto for that reason, and this is one of them.
As for XLR, I wish there was a HP amp as good as the L30 and wiht XLR inputs, for a similar price. But that may be too much to ask. Maybe in a future Topping L30s, s meaning symmetric ? But the L30 is so small (10 cm width) that it may be difficult to even accomodate 2 XLR in the back, so...

The upcomming A30Pro has been mentioned on the A50s thread, it will have a balanced input, but it will be more expensive than both the L30 and A50s.

 

[Jimbob54]

Oh, all right, maybe it's metal then : https://headfonics.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/schiit-magnius.jpg
But I really don't like it. IMHO it looks like it has been designed graphically by a first-year design school student. I mean, it screams "cheap" from all angles, lol (this is a personal opinion of course, and I've designed products in the past). I know that this is not supposed to be about looks, but there are some products I'd still veto for that reason, and this is one of them.
As for XLR, I wish there was a HP amp as good as the L30 and wiht XLR inputs, for a similar price. But that may be too much to ask. Maybe in a future Topping L30s, s meaning symmetric ? But the L30 is so small (10 cm width) that it may be difficult to even accomodate 2 XLR in the back, so...

Look at the geshelli archel 2.5

 

[Jose Hidalgo]

Look at the geshelli archel 2.5

You mean design-wise, right ? (God, this board REALLY is lacking a laughing emoji)
I mean, you managed to find a HP amp that had at the same time XLR inputs, cheap price, AND an ever worse design than the Schiit... [laughing emoji]

 

[Jimbob54]

You mean design-wise, right ? (God, this board REALLY is lacking a laughing emoji)
I mean, you managed to find a HP amp that had at the same time XLR inputs, cheap price, AND an ever worse design than the Schiit... [laughing emoji]
It has a great review for sure : https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...hel2-headphone-amp-review-another-champ.9438/

Question. You bought 3 sets of headphones after an extensive thread helping you choose. You're still deciding on (cheap) amps and dacs? For the same set up? What do you currently have?

 

[Jose Hidalgo]

Like I said in this very thread, I'm currently waiting for the E30/L30 to be available in blue/red.

So for RCA use, I guess the E30 still remains the better choice. Nice play, Topping ! I guess I'll keep waiting for its blue/red availability. Actually if it were already available I would have already ordered everything, and this topic wouldn't even exist

My setup is a bit complicated, since it involves separate PEQ for two headphones simultaneously. It took me a while to find a working solution and test that it actually works, at least software-wise :

I have already received a pair of headphones (not to mention the ones I had previously). I could order the other two right away, but it would make no sense without the DAC/Amp stack. So I'll wait : I'm a patient guy, I can wait a few weeks.

For the record you didn't quote the last version of my previous post : I deleted the link because the review wasn't of the 2.5 but of the 2.0.

 

[Soniclife]

I know that this is not supposed to be about looks

When it comes to choosing between the range of great measuring cheap DACs and amps that are around these days it might as well be about looks as they probably all sound the same, and the prices are close. The rational side says there are no wrong choices, might as well let your irrational side have at it.

 

[Jose Hidalgo]

Definitely @Soniclife . And I could also choose them irrationally by their measurements, as 115 or 120 dB probably make no difference to the ear, but it may be satisfactory to the brain because "bigger is better". It's all irrational at some point, but thankfully we can choose what we want.

 

[Jimbob54]

When it comes to choosing between the range of great measuring cheap DACs and amps that are around these days it might as well be about looks as they probably all sound the same, and the prices are close. The rational side says there are no wrong choices, might as well let your irrational side have at it.

Exactly. There is no point in asking any group which is better (sonically) between multiple devices at the top end of the measurement spectrum. At best someone will quote the numbers back at you. At worst you'll get someone declaring vast ocean of sonic differences between 120 dB and 115db sinad devices. Pays your money, takes your choice.

 

[Veri]

Like I said in this very thread, I'm currently waiting for the E30/L30 to be available in blue/red.


My setup is a bit complicated, since it involves separate PEQ for two headphones simultaneously. It took me a while to find a working solution and test that it actually works, at least software-wise :

View attachment 85718

I have already received a pair of headphones (not to mention the ones I had previously). I could order the other two right away, but it would make no sense without the DAC/Amp stack. So I'll wait : I'm a patient guy, I can wait a few weeks.

For the record you didn't quote the last version of my previous post : I deleted the link because the review wasn't of the 2.5 but of the 2.0.

That is actually pretty cool. I do wonder why you need them at the same time, though