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Creating bass weight and impact?

Mr. Widget

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Ime the correspondence is actually with motor strength, but that information is seldom made available. In general if a woofer manufacturer has gone to the trouble and expense of using a 4" voice coil they're not going to waste it on a weak motor, so "more than a 3" voice coil" is a good first approximation. But that there are prosound woofers with 3" voice coils which have motor strengths competitive with good 4" voice coil woofers.



In order to get decent sealed-box bass from that size woofer in that size cabinet, the woofer must have a high Qes which in turn implies a low motor strength. And apparently such is indeed the case - here is the replacement woofer, which presumably is similar to the original:


In order to do an apples-to-apples comparison of motor strength between woofers having different voice coil DC resistances (which translates into different BL figures even if the magnet strengths are actually identical), square the BL and divide it by the voice coil resistance. So it's Bl^2/Re. You can even take it one step further and divide that figure by the cone's moving mass (Mms) to get the power-to-weight ratio; or more precisely, the motor-strength-to-moving-mass ratio. The Mach 1 woofer is arguably abysmal by this metric.
I think you are narrowing it down... that Radio Shack equivalent 15" woofer gets a power to weight ratio of 0.21. The JBL 2202A midbass driver in the 4350 comes in at a whopping 1.76, and the JBL 2231A 15" woofers with their weighted cones come in at 0.46.
 

Duke

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I think you are narrowing it down... that Radio Shack equivalent 15" woofer gets a power to weight ratio of 0.21. The JBL 2202A midbass driver in the 4350 comes in at a whopping 1.76, and the JBL 2231A 15" woofers with their weighted cones come in at 0.46.

Thanks!

And as if the waters weren't already muddy enough...

Ime there is something else that can come into play, and I think it has to do with the geometry of the magnetic field. By way of example, in the course of product development of bass guitar cabs, I have found the 3" Eminence Kappalite motor to be unexpectedly impressive in subjective "impact" in comparison with its competitors, even though the published specs often favor the competitors.
 

audiofooled

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Just another line of thinking: my experience has lead me to believe that this "slam" factor is a function of energy over time, also the way the energy is focused over an area. I may be wrong, but more energy over less time is what is actually creating this phenomenon. A series of questions may arise from this. For example, does the signal in actual music contain such waveform? What about the crest factor (link stolen from @Holdt )

Further, if you are using multiple subs with dedicated amplifiers in your system, what gives when it comes to time alignment? Impulse and step response? Phase? As others have pointed out, I'm also wondering about the tradeoff of having multiple subs (also multiple amps) for the benefit of having smooth FR in the bass region, and time alignment? Music signals are quite different than sinewaves and steady state measurements don't tell us everything. There are other measurement methods for sure, but what would be the correct yardstick?

This form of tactile energy, the attack of it, is more often than not, very short in duration. Short enough that it really does not have a perceptible definitive pitch. It's just a "thump" and for high frequencies just a "click". As an real life analogy, in a real kick drum, there are modes of circular membrane involved:


"The short duration (fraction of a second) of the (0,1) mode means that this mode does not contribute greatly to the musical tone quality of a drum. In fact, when struck at the center a tympani, or other large drum, produces a "thump" which decays quickly and with no definite pitch."

Anyone who had close encounter with a real kick drum, may as well confirm it can pound your chest really hard, thanks to these couple of modes which have no definitive pitch, just a lot of energy. Other modes come later in time and are contributing to the timbre and pitch perception. Granted, many recordings of a kick drum are not really done very well, and are "beefed up" artificially with mixed in sinewaves. So the recording may not even contain information that would result in a "kick" from any system.

This is another example of electronic music artificial kick sounds and how it may be created:


I've posted this already a while ago, but this artist really is creating some good kicks which are produced with enough dynamic range so that you crank it as high as your system can handle. But on this video, if you follow his mouse cursor you may observe the following:

This is a pitching down sinewave sweep, ranging from as high as 17kHz, down to 44Hz, which is by no means flat in demand of acceleration.
Namely, the 17kHz to about 93Hz downward sweep is about only 2-3 milliseconds in duration, also with curved wave amplitudes (the lower the frequency the higher the amplitude). The lower frequency portion is also containing all frequencies down to 44 Hz or so, also with varying amplitudes towards lowest frequency. It is stretched in comparison to highs and in takes about 10ms for the lower frequencies to sweep, and then there's long sustain (a couple of hundreds of ms) and amplitude rolloff till settling down. Also, further EQ is applied, and then other tools to polish the sweep.

Even though the bass is slow and usually nothing out of the ordinary when it comes to voltage and current demands on your amplifier (or slew rate), I would agree with @Duke that this is where the motor strength comes into play when it comes to acceleration.

You may draw your own conclusions weather time alignment is important, crossover, integration. I would say that it matters, in fact microseconds would count if you want to reproduce a signal such as described above. If I misalign my sub to the mains by some 10mm, it's not audible at all, but the punch of the whole system is less. The energy is somehow lost. Perhaps not in SPL, but simply the wave propagation is messed up in time domain with respect to the MLP. The transients are simply having less "punch" that can't be compensated by more SPL.

Finally, the question of where does the energy go? I've also found the benefit of decoupling the system from the floor. Again, it's not really audible, but the tactile sensation is affected by having less energy dispersed to the floor and walls, windows and solid objects. The system is more efficient and I have more energy in the Y axis (what's coming through air), rather than X (what's coming through the floor) and felt at the seat. Wave propagation through solids is many times faster and is dissipated and unfortunately audible by rattling various objects around the house. Not exactly hi fidelity. It also has complex phase relations and some precedence effects over the audible sound. Resonances may arise and even affect the very boxes and baffles your drivers are mounted on. IMO, yet another thing to consider. Your floor vibrations won't give you the chest slam (as already pointed out by @neRok ) .
 
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This thread bears much resemblance-->

 

audiofooled

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This thread bears much resemblance-->


Yes, there are other threads also where this particular matter was discussed, but seems to never be resolved, or perhaps the recipe contains too many variables, down to the grains of salt... ;)

It is my understanding that people either have it or they don't, and nothing in between, regardless of room acoustics or how well FR is dialed in or measured. It is a curious topic.
 

ooheadsoo

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In my main system, I've had good gains by applying the following filter:
1702503358326.png


I might even play with this further by shifting the boost towards 100hz, if I get around to it. Kali IN-8V2 with two SVS SB2000 Classics.

You know what's funny, I get more slam, from my iLoud Micro Monitors with Monoprice Monolith THX 8" sub. It doesn't help that there are some serious bass nulls in the only reasonable seating zone in my main system.
 
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Sined

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Anyone who had close encounter with a real kick drum, may as well confirm it can pound your chest really hard, thanks to these couple of modes which have no definitive pitch, just a lot of energy. Other modes come later in time and are contributing to the timbre and pitch perception. Granted, many recordings of a kick drum are not really done very well, and are "beefed up" artificially with mixed in sinewaves. So the recording may not even contain information that would result in a "kick" from any system.
Fully agree ! As an amateur drum player, I do know very well how a drum sound and it is rather the exception when I find an album in which I find that the drum is well recorded and kept truly as a percussion instrument. Of course the produced SPL is often too loud to be recorded without a bit of compression, but in most recordings, that's way too much, it's like if the engineer wants to hide the drum behind all the other instruments. And worse, some producers imposes to drummers to play just a beat keeper, no fills, no funky beats, just a simple 4/4 hi-hat/snare/bass drum tempo that can (and is) easily be created electronically with music softwares.... Please let the genius of all the Steve Gadd or Harvey Mason of this world be recorded without destroying it...!

Looking for "kick and punch" at home? Well..., the problem may be your system or your room as largely discussed in this thread, but don't forget Dr. Toole's "circle of confusion": maybe the problem is from the start in the mix where everything has been flattened for commercial purposes...:(.
 

srrxr71

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Fully agree ! As an amateur drum player, I do know very well how a drum sound and it is rather the exception when I find an album in which I find that the drum is well recorded and kept truly as a percussion instrument. Of course the produced SPL is often too loud to be recorded without a bit of compression, but in most recordings, that's way too much, it's like if the engineer wants to hide the drum behind all the other instruments. And worse, some producers imposes to drummers to play just a beat keeper, no fills, no funky beats, just a simple 4/4 hi-hat/snare/bass drum tempo that can (and is) easily be created electronically with music softwares.... Please let the genius of all the Steve Gadd or Harvey Mason of this world be recorded without destroying it...!

Looking for "kick and punch" at home? Well..., the problem may be your system or your room as largely discussed in this thread, but don't forget Dr. Toole's "circle of confusion": maybe the problem is from the start in the mix where everything has been flattened for commercial purposes...:(.
I wonder do small rooms make an actual drum not hit well?
 

SeanAtx

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How close to a live outdoor performance can we really get in a typical room, anyways? With an outdoor performance, you usually have an array of woofers sending a huge pressure wave from one general direction, but in a room, it's a mess of reflections surrounding you, not to mention the peaks and nulls every room will give you.

Something is always missing for me - I can crank my 2.1 system up and it'll give me plenty of rumble, rattling the windows and knocking crap off the shelves downstairs, but it doesn't thump me in the chest like I've felt outdoors. Is it a combination of a tight impulse plus a lack of reflections that causes this sensation? Is it even possible to emulate when playing a commercial mix that pulls the kick drums down to a more balanced level?
 

srrxr71

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How close to a live outdoor performance can we really get in a typical room, anyways? With an outdoor performance, you usually have an array of woofers sending a huge pressure wave from one general direction, but in a room, it's a mess of reflections surrounding you, not to mention the peaks and nulls every room will give you.

Something is always missing for me - I can crank my 2.1 system up and it'll give me plenty of rumble, rattling the windows and knocking crap off the shelves downstairs, but it doesn't thump me in the chest like I've felt outdoors. Is it a combination of a tight impulse plus a lack of reflections that causes this sensation? Is it even possible to emulate when playing a commercial mix that pulls the kick drums down to a more balanced level?
From my experience it’s okay in the listening position but there is one corner that goes crazy. I mean scary to even stand there even with corner bass traps.
 

srrxr71

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I've heard drums in a 2x3 meter storage room once.
SQ aside,you run for your life o_O

(but sounds like a drums,yes)
So why do we think a natural drum is okay but our speakers cannot replicate it?
 

norman bates

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integration is also a factor on slam.
Harmonic bass distortion can add some pleasant slam.

Like running multiple 15's as a 2-way, not crossed at 100hz, but a 15" (in a 2-way) ran from 20hz up to say 800hz.

Maybe it is room size vs cone area.
My 2 speakers (15" 3-ways) would pound you in a living room.
But in a 30' wide x 60' deep, they didn't pound you.
They went a lot louder before garbling (reflections).
The bass tones were better, but the impact/pressure was definitely less.
 
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Mr. Widget

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Thanks!

And as if the waters weren't already muddy enough...

Ime there is something else that can come into play, and I think it has to do with the geometry of the magnetic field. By way of example, in the course of product development of bass guitar cabs, I have found the 3" Eminence Kappalite motor to be unexpectedly impressive in subjective "impact" in comparison with its competitors, even though the published specs often favor the competitors.
For grins I just ran the numbers for the JBL 1501AL-2, the woofers in the DD67000. They come it at 0.55 for Bl^2/Re over Mms... pretty good for a 15" driver. The JBL 2216Nd, the woofer in the highly regarded M2 monitor comes in at 0.50.

Subjectively I have been very impressed with the bass quality of the M2, but not blown away in the weight and impact department. I think you are on to something here.

I know the idea of a "fast" woofer or mid driver is pretty universally written off as nonsense and I tend to agree, but it seems likely that drivers with more powerful motors do make a difference in some perceptible ways.
 

Mr. Widget

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I've heard drums in a 2x3 meter storage room once.
SQ aside,you run for your life o_O

(but sounds like a drums,yes)
Good point on room size...
So why do we think a natural drum is okay but our speakers cannot replicate it?
They can... but it takes big speakers with a fair amount of power.

For a number of years I had a pair of DD67000s being driven by a pair of Halo JC-1s. The combo in my fairly average sized living room had essentially unlimited headroom. When I turned up the volume to live levels I absolutely was able to recreate the sound of a live drum kit or concert tympani when I played the right recordings.

Could I recreate the sound of a rock concert or symphony, no way, but certain recordings did bring these instruments into my space.
 

Duke

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The JBL 2216Nd, the woofer in the highly regarded M2 monitor comes in at 0.50.

Subjectively I have been very impressed with the bass quality of the M2, but not blown away in the weight and impact department. I think you are on to something here.

It's always a juggling of tradeoffs, isn't it?
 
D

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It's down to EQ. If the speakers are capable to begin with.

I had a pair of 3-way speakers with 10 " woofers kick quite well. I then replaced them with a pair of 4-ways with a 12 " woofer and they didn't have the same kick until I got the my EQ curve right.
 

neRok

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I just did a quick experiment. I turned up the volume (with earmuffs) and stood near a speaker (Kali IN8 = 8" woofer), but I didn't feel much. I put my hand close to the woofer (~10cm away), and I felt some impact. I moved my hand away and the impact reduced quite quickly (gone by 50cm). And then I moved around the room to see if it was different anywhere else, and I found there was some impact at the back wall. It wasn't much, but it was noticeable. Because walls are where the reflections of all freq are overlapping maximally, I keep wondering how important really high SPL is to the impact? I've been using earplugs at concerts for years, so maybe they are required at home too?

Anyway, I've been convinced on pro-drivers for a while now, and this thread is further validating that point. So 2x DIY "subs" with 15" or greater drivers will be my next hifi project.
 

Jorginho

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Your system looks insane for a home setup, sure you can use it for events and stuff. Thanks for sharing both the photos and the experience you get!

I can only look with envy...
Yep for sure, takes much larger than 8381/Danleys.
For a few hundred folks, these mains PM60 and PM90, on top of theses subs JTR Orbitshifters work great.
If more mains are needed for like a thousand, this make a good speaker.
I add as many horn subs as possible... the 18"s shown under the stack are just for side fill etc...

Now all that said, and shown....if folks think it takes a huge space to benefit from very strong speakers....
that is not my experience...whatsoever...in fact mine is the opposite...

The effortless SPL dynamics and low distortion, the utterly clean sound from speakers with higher SPL capability...is such a joy at everyday listening levels...
and is an absolute thrill ride when occasionally wanting to blast.

Here's my right side stereo home speaker.... built solely for highest sound quality possible....(not SPL)........but still waaay stronger than the genelec or Danley mentioned...
I'm at 12-15ft ft listening distance
 
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