Piano concerto recordings better than live performances ?

[pablolie]

I like it too. I was just trying to give OP's apparent preference due regard.

Can you guys really tell the difference between a Steinway or a Kawai Shigeru (which many concert pianists regard as "the best" these days) or Fazioli or Steingraeber or others? ... Let's get a bit real here. Steinway & Sons is a great brand, but there are several other great top end piano brands out there. And a lot of the preference is driven by sponsorship.

 

[Robin L]

I’ve been fooled into believing a live piano was playing while listening to recorded music only twice. The first was when I was sitting in a vestibule off the main room at an RMAF listening to a piece from Wende Snijders’ Chante! CD being played on Von Schweikert VR35 Export speakers through KR Audio Kronzilla amps. The second was in my own listening room playing a piece from Sarah McLachlan’s Freedom Sessions on my VR4 Gen III HSE through ICEpower 1000 ASP amps. The first was using a digital file, the second from LP. I think it takes the right recording and some rare cosmological alignment. Magical when it happens.

Martin

I don't think I have ever been fooled into believing that a recording of a piano was "live". However, I've had few problems listening to historic recordings that no one would confuse with live sound.

One thing about recordings of pianos and (especially) harpsichords is that the positioning of microphones can have more of an effect on the sound of the recordings than the microphones themselves. One would think that an ORTF or XY pair of cardioid microphones aimed down into the instrument's harp would yield the most realistic results, but I've found that a pair of omnis on the tail end of the piano, separated by about twenty inches, aimed slightly into the harp gives much more realistic results. I have been told by a well regarded audio engineer that this is the technique used by Decca. I have seen microphone arrays for Jazz recordings where more than two microphones are placed close to the instrument's hammers, giving an acoustic perspective that only the performer could hear, but which obviously would cut through the mix. I suspect Glenn Gould used a microphone set-up like this. I know the Concord Jazz series at Maybeck Recital Hall in Berkeley (a great little spot for a classical recital) used that microphone technique. One of the cool things about Maybeck Hall is that they have two excellent Yamaha pianos that they always keep properly maintained.

 

[Robin L]

Can you guys really tell the difference between a Steinway or a Kawai Shigeru (which many concert pianists regard as "the best" these days) or Fazioli or Steingraeber or others? ... Let's get a bit real here. Steinway & Sons is a great brand, but there are several other great top end piano brands out there.

Judging from recordings and experiences recording, Yamaha pianos are fine, Steinway pianos have more varied color, Bechstein even more than Steinways. Baldwins are steely. Claudio Arrau's analog set of Beethoven's piano sonatas is a good example of the sound of a Bechstein piano.

 

[pablolie]

I don't think I have ever been fooled into believing that a recording of a piano was "live". However, I've had few problems listening to historic recordings that no one would confuse with live sound.

One thing about recordings of pianos and (especially) harpsichords is that the positioning of microphones can have more of an effect on the sound of the recordings than the microphones themselves. One would think that an ORTF or XY pair of cardioid microphones aimed down into the instrument's harp would yield the most realistic results, but I've found that a pair of omnis on the tail end of the piano, separated by about twenty inches, aimed slightly into the harp gives much more realistic results. I have been told by a well regarded audio engineer that this is the technique used by Decca. I have seen microphone arrays for Jazz recordings where more than two microphones are placed close to the instrument's hammers, giving an acoustic perspective that only the performer could hear, but which obviously would cut through the mix. I suspect Glenn Gould used a microphone set-up like this. I know the Concord Jazz series at Maybeck Recital Hall in Berkeley (a great little spot for a classical recital) used that microphone technique. One of the cool things about Maybeck Hall is that they have two excellent Yamaha pianos that they always keep properly maintained.

https://www.discogs.com/master/1274151-Omar-Sosa-Ballads

Listen to "Twice as sad" or "Mis tres notas".

We did have a discussion on piano recordings in another topic, I think it was "The truth about piano recordings", and I loved the fact many experts and recording engineers chimed in. Was very enlightening.

 

[Robin L]

https://www.discogs.com/master/1274151-Omar-Sosa-Ballads

Listen to "Twice as sad" or "Mis tres notas".

We did have a discussion on piano recordings in another topic, I think it was "The truth about piano recordings", and I loved the fact many experts and recording engineers chimed in. Was very enlightening.

This has a very nice sound, but this is also an example of a recording that gives us the perspective of the pianist, very close to the instrument's hammers. I suspect this would be an ideal piano sound in Yoshi's.

I made a few recordings for Laurette Goldberg's Musicsources at Yoshi's, not the new one near Jack London Square but the older one. Laurette Goldberg had an instrument museum/performance venue and sometimes would have presentations of works that required a larger venue at the old Yoshi's, I'd record those concerts for her. That venue had issues with buzzing from overhead lights.

 

[pablolie]

This has a very nice sound, but this is also an example of a recording that gives us the perspective of the pianist, very close to the instrument's hammers. I suspect this would be an ideal piano sound in Yoshi's.

I made a few recordings for Laurette Goldberg's Musicsources at Yoshi's, not the new one near Jack London Square but the older one. Laurette Goldberg had an instrument museum/performance venue and sometimes would have presentations of works that required a larger venue at the old Yoshi's, I'd record those concerts for her. That venue had issues with buzzing from overhead lights.

You are the expert here, I am just a somewhat educated listener by many years of listening to stuff. I am sometimes blown away when I listen to Igo Pogorelich again, who for many years was an absolute reference in my listening to many things, but some of his recordings now just sound boomy or even nervous to me. He is definitely an artist that sounded better live than when facing the pressure of recording, in my humble opinion. His long hiatus from recording seems to attest to that. And supposedly he was even more difficult than Keith Jarrett to be appeased with the sound of the performing venue, which is something to behold in itself...

 

[Robin L]

You are the expert here, I am just a somewhat educated listener by many years of listening to stuff. I am sometimes blown away when I listen to Igo Pogorelich again, who for many years was an absolute reference in my listening to many things, but some of his recordings now just sound boomy or even nervous to me. He is definitely an artist that sounded better live than when facing the pressure of recording, in my humble opinion. His long hiatus from recording seems to attest to that. And supposedly he was even more difficult than Keith Jarrett to be appeased with the sound of the performing venue, which is something to behold in itself...

Glenn Gould used to be one of my references. When I had a classical music show at KPFA I did a series on Glenn Gould. Now he strikes as egomaniacal and extremely wayward. Sometimes he'd make an invigorating recording but all too often his interpretations seemed to be more about himself than the music. And of all the classical pianists I know, he opted for the perspective of the performer rather than the audience, more than any other.

However:

 

[pablolie]

Glenn Gould used to be one of my references. When I had a classical music show at KPFA I did a series on Glenn Gould. Now he strikes as egomaniacal and extremely wayward. Sometimes he'd make an invigorating recording but all too often his interpretations seemed to be more about himself than the music. And of all the classical pianists I know, he opted for the perspective of the performer rather than the audience.

However:

No one can doubt his Bach interpretations opened a whole new world to look at those, and gave others courage to innovate around their own visions.

For one, Jaques Loussier said that encouraged him to innovate with Jazzy interpretations (which I personally love, especially his Gymnopedie stuff by Satie) of classics.

I think that is the power of classical music - how it manages to continue to inspire innovation in many ways, while staying true to the original power of it.

 

[Multicore]

Can you guys really tell the difference between a Steinway or a Kawai Shigeru (which many concert pianists regard as "the best" these days) or Fazioli or Steingraeber or others? ... Let's get a bit real here. Steinway & Sons is a great brand, but there are several other great top end piano brands out there. And a lot of the preference is driven by sponsorship.

Idk. I was talking about the difference between listening to a piano and listening to a CD, the topic of this thread.

All the same, I don't know why you're asking me this.

 

[pablolie]

Idk. I was talking about the difference between listening to a piano and listening to a CD, the topic of this thread.

All the same, I don't know why you're asking me this.

Wasnt in any way confrontational, sorry if you perceived it as such.

I also shared my soft opinions on live vs recorded in the thread.

I never want to incite or engage in any confrontational audio topic ever again in my life, and respect everyone that contiributes to interesting topics and exchanges.

 

[pinger]

In my mind big difference between the piano sound in a concerto with full orchestra and a solo piano recital in a small room or maybe even in a smaller venue like a church. I have several discs (CD) (solo piano) where to me its like a piano in the room.

 

[Multicore]

Glenn Gould used to be one of my references. When I had a classical music show at KPFA I did a series on Glenn Gould. Now he strikes as egomaniacal and extremely wayward. Sometimes he'd make an invigorating recording but all too often his interpretations seemed to be more about himself than the music. And of all the classical pianists I know, he opted for the perspective of the performer rather than the audience.

When were you at KPFA?

No one can doubt his Bach interpretations opened a whole new world to look at those, and gave others courage to innovate around their own visions.

For one, Jaques Loussier said that encouraged him to innovate with Jazzy interpretations (which I personally love, especially his Gymnopedie stuff by Satie) of classics.

I think that is the power of classical music - how it manages to continue to inspire innovation in many ways, while staying true to the original power of it.

Have either of you read The Loser by Thomas Bernhard? Wonderful book. Its three main characters are world class concert pianists and one of the is a fictionalized version of Glenn Gould. The plot is that the other two give up piano because Gould is so good and one of them eventually kills himself. But as is common with Bernhard, the characters are all kinda avatars for aspects of self.

 

[pablolie]

When were you at KPFA?


Have either of you read The Loser by Thomas Bernhard? Wonderful book. Its three main characters are world class concert pianists and one of the is a fictionalized version of Glenn Gould. The plot is that the other two give up piano because Gould is so good and one of them eventually kills himself. But as is common with Bernhard, the characters are all kinda avatars for aspects of self.

I have not but i am immediately getting it, thanks!

 

[LTig]

Hi All,

A few weeks ago I attended a classical concert performed by a good orchestra (hr-Sinfonieorchester Frankfurt) and a talented young pianist, Jan Lisiecki. He played with ardour a full-size Steinway piano with its cover appropriately opened.
I was at the eighth row from the scene, a bit on the left side in a 1000-seat modern concert hall that was totally full.

While the rendering of the Grieg concerto was faultless and full of energy, I felt a bit disappointed : from my seat the piano was dearly lacking bass compared to any cd I play at home or what my wife plays on a much smaller Pleyel piano.

I watched Tshaikovskys piano concert #1 recently live, same size room, but in row 11 left of the middle so I could see the pianist (Anna Vinnitskaya) playing. It was one of the best piano concerts I've witnessed so far. The sound was very good, the orchestra never played louder than the pianist and I did not miss anything.

A piano in a small room sounds much different than one in a big room. Same with a drum set. Kicking the bass drum in a small room sounds very punchy for the drummer, do it on an open stage and it's difficult to hear/feel its punch without additional technical means (PA-speaker, butt shaker on drum seat).

It would probably have been better if I had sat closer to the piano, but then I would have heard the violins and cellos far too loud compared to the rest of the orchestra.

Then I wondered : do I really strive for fidelity and want the same sound in my living room as at the concert ?

Altbough the emotions I got from that live performance were thrilling and invaluable, I actually prefer the more 'full' sound of the recording with a microphone close to the piano and the artificial piano/orchestra balance rendered by the mixing engineer.

Am I the only one ?

For the purely symphonic end of that same concert, my seat was almost optimal and I think good records played on a decent sound system are quite consistent with the concert experience.

Yep.

What *sound* do you prefer : recorded, processed and precisely balanced music or the pure live exerience and its inherently imperfect balance of the various parts of the orchestra ?

Live. At home precisely balanced, of course.

What's your preferred seat for attending a piano concerto ?

The one I had is quite right. Not too far away, not too close.

The next question might be shocking for some : did you ever attend a live piano concerto that actually sounded as good as a good record ?

This one did.

I suspect the live results could be better with a deeper scene, the piano closest to the public, the orchestra as far back as possible and a seat in the first rows.
Did you ever experience that ?

No, but it is the task of the conductor to direct the orchestra such that it does not overwhelm the solist. This is true both live and while recording.

 

[pinger]

I think its similar to watching a sporting event live vs on tv. Live everyone has a slightly different or radically different viewing angle and distance from the action. On TV everyone sees the same thing

 

[Multicore]

I have not but i am immediately getting it, thanks!

This might interest too https://gasgiants.substack.com/p/der-untergeher-the-loser-thomas-bernhard Mentioned incidentally in it is a very interesting Australian radio conversation about Gould and Liberace (linked on that page) and how they represent the before and after of an important transition in the culture of piano recitals.

 

[Robin L]

When were you at KPFA?

1988 - 1998. Did lots of different kinds of shows - Classical, New Age, World Music. Wasn't very good as a DJ but was quite useful as a recording engineer.

 

[ahofer]

You could be sitting in a null.

Isn't that unlikely in a large, acoustically designed auditorium? It's longer than the low frequency wavelengths and likely opens toward the rear and has diffusers on front and sides.

The amplitude of the solo instrument will attenuate over distance, of course. Also a recording will typically have a spot mic on the soloist and bring them up in the mix, hence more volume, more bass. Finally, your home system may have a peak, artificially reinforcing the bass.

 

[Justdafactsmaam]

Can you guys really tell the difference between a Steinway or a Kawai Shigeru (which many concert pianists regard as "the best" these days) or Fazioli or Steingraeber or others? ... Let's get a bit real here. Steinway & Sons is a great brand, but there are several other great top end piano brands out there. And a lot of the preference is driven by sponsorship.

Yes. Easily. I can easily tell the difference between individual Steinway Ds. Each one has its own sound and each one can be substantially tweaked by a piano technician to sound different to the liking of different pianists.

I doubt preferences are being driven by sponsorship. I think great artists deserve a little more credit than that.

 

[Justdafactsmaam]

Isn't that unlikely in a large, acoustically designed auditorium? It's longer than the low frequency wavelengths and likely opens toward the rear and has diffusers on front and sides.

The amplitude of the solo instrument will attenuate over distance, of course. Also a recording will typically have a spot mic on the soloist and bring them up in the mix, hence more volume, more bass. Finally, your home system may have a peak, artificially reinforcing the bass.

Extremely unlikely there would be nulls in a concert hall. As for attenuation, concert halls are typically designed to substantially add gain to the sound of the instruments. In most well designed halls there is minimal attenuation at any seat in the hall other than the nose bleed seats. Maximum SPLs contrary to intuition are generally experienced from mid hall seats.