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Compiling a list of Power DACs / full digital amplifiers

Head_Unit said:
I think this can be summarized as "the best performance is making the DAC great and followed by a very clean power amp"???

As for "what is actually analogue and what is actually digital" to ME a "truly digital" amp would not have any separate D/A conversion inside. It would itself be a DAC capable of high power.

I was going to start a thread like this, mostly out of wondering if anyone had made a PCM (not PWM!) power DAC, volume adjusted I suppose by changing the full-scale voltage rails. That would seem the "purest" way to convert, which is not necessarily contradicting what Putzeys said about real-world design performance.

What are the problems/limitations of PCM-to-PWM conversions? I'm sure that has been written about...
Click to expand...
See the ECDesigns models listed. It is exactly what you are asking for. Putzeys does mention in the article:

One should ask the question: would any D/A converter designer in his right mind build a DAC using power components? Probably not

Not sure how to interpret it.
 
Thank you for the list. I was looking for Class D amplifiers to connect passive speakers to my PC. I was going to order the Douk Audio A5/AIYIMA D03, but then I found out about the Harman Kardon Citation Amp. Since you can get a used one for the same price as the Douk Audio A5/AIYIMA D03, I think it's a better deal.
 
Laisseez said:
Thank you for the list. I was looking for Class D amplifiers to connect passive speakers to my PC. I was going to order the Douk Audio A5/AIYIMA D03, but then I found out about the Harman Kardon Citation Amp. Since you can get a used one for the same price as the Douk Audio A5/AIYIMA D03, I think it's a better deal.
Click to expand...
It has problems with heat. One user installed a fan in front of his

K

'Powernode (2021) vs H/K Citation vs Sonos Amp vs NAD D 3045'

Hi,

I've been looking for a new amp to connect to my TV. Speakers are Kef Q150. Sub is a BK Elec P12-300SB-PR.

Requirements:
  • Connect via HDMI utilising ARC (CEC is important for family friendliness - single remote).
  • A high pass filter (I like removing the low-end weight from the fronts, leaving that to the sub - I find this improves dialogue for TV use).
  • Don't want a hulking great AVR to keep the wife happy (had a Denon 2312 previously). Last/current amp was a NAD D 3045 (which has an issue and is sadly to be returned). It matched the Denon's sound output (to my ear) whilst...
 
Svend P said:
It has problems with heat. One user installed a fan in front of his

K

'Powernode (2021) vs H/K Citation vs Sonos Amp vs NAD D 3045'

Hi,

I've been looking for a new amp to connect to my TV. Speakers are Kef Q150. Sub is a BK Elec P12-300SB-PR.

Requirements:
  • Connect via HDMI utilising ARC (CEC is important for family friendliness - single remote).
  • A high pass filter (I like removing the low-end weight from the fronts, leaving that to the sub - I find this improves dialogue for TV use).
  • Don't want a hulking great AVR to keep the wife happy (had a Denon 2312 previously). Last/current amp was a NAD D 3045 (which has an issue and is sadly to be returned). It matched the Denon's sound output (to my ear) whilst...
Click to expand...
I read about that on Avforums. It seems to be a problem only if you run it in a tight space. I'm using it on open air on my desk and can raise it a bit also.

 
My Atomic-Pi(s) ( https://www.digital-loggers.com/api_faqs.html ) have a built-in TI power-dac: https://www.digital-loggers.com/tas5719.pdf
It actually sounds surprisingly good, though it's fixed at 48K/32bits 48K/24bits or 48K/16bits:

XMOS Mayfield Audio at usb-0000:00:14.0-4, high speed : USB Audio

Playback:
Status: Running
Interface = 1
Altset = 1
Packet Size = 56
Momentary freq = 48000 Hz (0x6.0000)
Interface 1
Altset 1
Format: S32_LE
Channels: 2
Endpoint: 0x01 (1 OUT) (ASYNC)
Rates: 48000
Data packet interval: 125 us
Bits: 24
Channel map: FL FR
Sync Endpoint: 0x81 (1 IN)
Sync EP Interface: 2
Sync EP Altset: 1
Implicit Feedback Mode: Yes
Interface 1
Altset 2
Format: S16_LE
Channels: 2
Endpoint: 0x01 (1 OUT) (ASYNC)
Rates: 48000
Data packet interval: 125 us
Bits: 16
Channel map: FL FR
Interface 1
Altset 3
Format: SPECIAL DSD_U32_BE
Channels: 2
Endpoint: 0x01 (1 OUT) (ASYNC)
Rates: 48000
Data packet interval: 125 us
Bits: 32
DSD raw: DOP=0, bitrev=0
Channel map: FL FR

Capture:
Status: Stop
Interface 2
Altset 1
Format: S32_LE
Channels: 8
Endpoint: 0x81 (1 IN) (ASYNC)
Rates: 48000
Data packet interval: 125 us
Bits: 24
Channel map: FL FR FC LFE RL RR FLC FRC
 
kandamrgam said:
See the ECDesigns models listed. It is exactly what you are asking for. Putzeys does mention in the article:

One should ask the question: would any D/A converter designer in his right mind build a DAC using power components? Probably not

Not sure how to interpret it.
Click to expand...
Isn‘t this exactly how the Lyndorf TDIA‘s work? They are high-power DAC‘s.
If this was an inferior concept, I‘m sure Lyngdorf would use Purifi Eigentakt technology. All the more as Peter Lyngdorf is a co-founder of Purifi and business partner of Bruno Putzeys.
 
Rider said:
Isn‘t this exactly how the Lyndorf TDIA‘s work? They are high-power DAC‘s.
If this was an inferior concept, I‘m sure Lyngdorf would use Purifi Eigentakt technology. All the more as Peter Lyngdorf is a co-founder of Purifi and business partner of Bruno Putzeys.
Click to expand...
It is inferior:

amirm

'Review and Measurements of Lyngdorf TDAI-3400 Amp & EQ (Part 1)'

This is part one of the review and detailed measurements of Lyngdorf TDAI-3400 Integrated amplifier, streamer, DAC and Room equalizer. It is on kind loan from a member and costs USD $6,499 (£4,995.00). In this review I will be focusing on the overall features of the unit, and performance of its DAC and amplifier subsystems. In part 2 I will be hooking it up to my main system to test the RoomPerfect room equalization feature.

Note: My company, Madrona Digital does business with one of the companies in the Lyngdorf family (Steinway Lyngdorf). I consider them a good partner of our...
  • Like

Their bigger amps, like MXA-8400 use Purifi modules

​

 
voodooless said:
It is inferior:

amirm

'Review and Measurements of Lyngdorf TDAI-3400 Amp & EQ (Part 1)'

This is part one of the review and detailed measurements of Lyngdorf TDAI-3400 Integrated amplifier, streamer, DAC and Room equalizer. It is on kind loan from a member and costs USD $6,499 (£4,995.00). In this review I will be focusing on the overall features of the unit, and performance of its DAC and amplifier subsystems. In part 2 I will be hooking it up to my main system to test the RoomPerfect room equalization feature.

Note: My company, Madrona Digital does business with one of the companies in the Lyngdorf family (Steinway Lyngdorf). I consider them a good partner of our...
  • Like

Their bigger amps, like MXA-8400 use Purifi modules

​

Click to expand...
I‘ve read that and it doesn‘t seem valid as the test methods employed don‘t fit the technology of a TDIA.
 
Rider said:
Isn‘t this exactly how the Lyndorf TDIA‘s work? They are high-power DAC‘s.
If this was an inferior concept, I‘m sure Lyngdorf would use Purifi Eigentakt technology. All the more as Peter Lyngdorf is a co-founder of Purifi and business partner of Bruno Putzeys.
Click to expand...
No, to the best of my knowledge TDAI employes their PWM based equibit technology, not a true power DAC like ECDesigns.
 
voodooless said:
What doesn't fit?
Click to expand...
I have to admit that I don‘t really understand all the tech stuff. But I remember it being mentieoned in the thread on the TDAI 3400 that the measurements taken were at least partly not valid due to the technical concept of this device. It also irritates me that there are seperate test of the DAC and the amp. My understanding is that it is either a DAC-less amp or an DAC without an amp.

Regardless, even if the measurements are valid and give a horrid result, I cannot follow this in practice, as my TDAI 2170 has been THE major step ahead regarding audio quality for me. I‘m not talking about ‚sound‘. What I mean is articulateness. I could suddenly understand speech and song lyrics which were unintelligable for me with previous amps I owned (Naim Nait 5 and then Musical Fidelity M? 6, both were underwhelming by hindsight. I cannot even remember the Yamaha and Denon from earlier days.)

I don’t want to adulate Lyngdorf just because I own one. I‘m just just intrigued by the general concept of fully digital amplification. From a lay‘s perspective it seems to make sense, but I may be completely misled.

I‘ll have to go and consciously listen to a Prurifi class D amp in comparison to my current TDIA. I‘m not really looking to replace it, but I would like to know my options just in case …

Thanks for all the input,
 
Rider said:
I have to admit that I don‘t really understand all the tech stuff. But I remember it being mentieoned in the thread on the TDAI 3400 that the measurements taken were at least partly not valid due to the technical concept of this device
Click to expand...
Citation needed! It’s just an amp, it’s tested like any other amp, no matter if the input is digital or not. What we expect to come out of it is the same, so the same methods apply.

Rider said:
I have to admit that I don‘t really understand all the tech stuff
Click to expand...
Nor do you understand psychoacoustics, bias, marketing and controlled listening tests.

 
voodooless said:
Citation needed! It’s just an amp, it’s tested like any other amp, no matter if the input is digital or not. What we expect to come out of it is the same, so the same methods apply.
Click to expand...
The complaint was that some of it's performance was measured from the line out, which most users would only use a subwoofer out.
 
Svend P said:
The complaint was that some of its performance was measured from the line out, which most users would only use a subwoofer out.
Click to expand...
So they complain that more is measured than strictly needed? :facepalm:
 
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