Combine small and large speakers into hybrid 3 ways? Good or bad idea?

[Pdxwayne]

I have two distinct setups in my living room.

One is 2.1, with bookshelf and sub, just for my stereo listening.
The other is 3.0, with floorstander as the mains, mostly for my family members watching YouTube videos.

What I have found is that the bookshelf speakers have much better details than the 3 ways.

The floorstanders don't have as good details, but it seems to cast a more realistic placement of instruments. Not sure if it is because it is a 3 ways, because it has larger bass woofers of 10", larger cabinet, or something else.

I am thinking to combine the best traits of both sets using minidsp HD and stereo amps. For example:

400 Hz and up to my bookshelf
400 Hz and below to my 3 ways.
Place them close together, and use REW to match them into hybrid 3 ways.

Bad idea?

Thanks!

 

[jonfitch]

Not really going to do that much for you. Your imaging issue probably has to do with the fact that a 1" tweeter and a 7" woofer (with a high crossover point) has some directivty discontinuities at the crossover region. That's going to be generally around 1-3k hz region.

For better imaging you need to either get 3 way speakers or buy a 2 way with a woofer that's 5.5" or less and run a higher crossover with sub.

Stereo subwoofers would probably also help with envelopment effect.

 

[Pdxwayne]

Not really going to do that much for you. Your imaging issue probably has to do with the fact that a 1" tweeter and a 7" woofer (with a high crossover point) has some directivty discontinuities at the crossover region. That's going to be generally around 1-3k hz region.

For better imaging you need to either get 3 way speakers or buy a 2 way with a woofer that's 5.5" or less and run a higher crossover with sub.

Stereo subwoofers would probably also help with envelopment effect.

Thanks!

I do have smaller speakers (5.5" woofer).

Would this hybrid work better with smaller speakers (5.5 “woofer) with the 3-ways acted like stereo subs? It would benefited from using active biamp too....

 

[daftcombo]

Thanks!

I do have smaller speakers (5.5" woofer).

Would this hybrid work better with smaller speakers (5.5 “woofer) with the 3-ways acted like stereo subs? It would benefited from using active biamp too....

How do you plan positioning them? The smaller avobe the bigger?

You will have at least two sorts of problem:

1) acoustic centers of the drivers too far from each other, they will probably not integrate well and you'll have the impression of two sources instead of one
https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/354194-center-center-distance-matter.html
"the spacing should be less than a 1/4 wavelength a the XO frequency "

2) you'll have phase issues because the drivers should be placed precisely and not on the same plane but how will you calculate that?

 

[Eetu]

I say, go for it! I haven't tried anything similar but you can also time-align the speaker pairs, perhaps linearize the crossover (see this guide). It's probably best to keep the distance between the bookshelf and floorstander drivers under 1x wavelength (crossover frequency) so under 85cm (343 / 400).

Edit: @daftcombo mentioned 1/4 wavelength, I remember reading that 1x wavelength is sufficient around 400Hz but perhaps someone can clarify this.

 

[Pdxwayne]

How do you plan positioning them? The smaller avobe the bigger?

You will have at least two sorts of problem:

1) acoustic centers of the drivers too far from each other, they will probably not integrate well and you'll have the impression of two sources instead of one
https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/354194-center-center-distance-matter.html
"the spacing should be less than a 1/4 wavelength a the XO frequency "

2) you'll have phase issues because the drivers should be placed precisely and not on the same plane but how will you calculate that?

1)I plan to place the speakers next to each other. Should be close enough for 400hz and below?
2)I plan to use REW and minidsp to match the phase. I think once I get a smooth freq sweep, it would mean I get the phase right.

Thanks for the tips!

 

[Pdxwayne]

I say, go for it! I haven't tried anything similar but you can also time-align the speaker pairs, perhaps linearize the crossover (see this guide). It's probably best to keep the distance between the bookshelf and floorstander drivers under 1x wavelength (crossover frequency) so under 85cm (343 / 400).

Edit: @daftcombo mentioned 1/4 wavelength, I remember reading that 1x wavelength is sufficient around 400Hz but perhaps someone can clarify this.

Thanks for the tips!

 

[Thunder22]

I've done something similar in the past when my sub woofer died. I ran a pair of floor standers behind my bookshelves with only the woofers wired in from a separate amp. Are your floor standers bi-wireable?

 

[abdo123]

do you hear crackling (bass distortion) when you raise the volume on your bookshelfs?

otherwise I don't know what audible benefits would shifting 100-400Hz to a bigger woofer would do. you already mentioned you're using subwoofers.

it's all about how loud you play, if the bookshelfs are not keeping up then buy better floorstanders. if the bookshelfs are keeping up then sell the floorstanders and buy more of bookshelfs.

 

[Pdxwayne]

I've done something similar in the past when my sub woofer died. I ran a pair of floor standers behind my bookshelves with only the woofers wired in from a separate amp. Are your floor standers bi-wireable?

Floor stander not bi-wireable. The minidsp HD will take care of the crossover. Thanks!

 

[GDK]

mostly for my family members watching YouTube videos

Could this not be the source of the problem?

 

[Pdxwayne]

do you hear crackling (bass distortion) when you raise the volume on your bookshelfs?

otherwise I don't know what audible benefits would shifting 100-400Hz to a bigger woofer would do. you already mentioned you're using subwoofers.

it's all about how loud you play, if the bookshelfs are not keeping up then buy better floorstanders. if the bookshelfs are keeping up then sell the floorstanders and buy more of bookshelfs.

Bookshelf no cracking. Just got a bit muddy when play songs with lots of bass loud. Currently crossing at 80hz helps.

I am trying to save money. Instead of going for the $10K 3 ways big brother of my bookshelf, I am thinking I can do hybrid with my existing 3 ways to save money.
; )

 

[Pdxwayne]

Could this not be the source of the problem?

Source of what problem?

 

[GDK]

Source of what problem?

Why you feel that the floorstanders lack detail and therefore your desire to combine them with your bookshelves to get the best of both worlds? Sorry, maybe I have that wrong though.

 

[Pdxwayne]

Why you feel that the floorstanders lack detail and therefore your desire to combine them with your bookshelves to get the best of both worlds? Sorry, maybe I have that wrong though.

Floor stander is another brand that I bought used at an excellent price a while back. Excellent for movies. It can cast a big sound stage and has the dynamics, but just OK for music when I compare to my many other bookshelves.

I didn't want to spend $10K for floorstander with better clarity, thus I got the bookshelf with better clarity, thinking that using a sub or two would help.

But, it still seems the bookshelf is not as real sounding sometimes. It can cast big sound stage, can have great imaging, but seems less real sometimes when compare to the floorstander.

I might need to spend the money for better floorstander in the near future......

 

[Pdxwayne]

I tried combined speakers yesterday. One thing I found out for sure is I don't like using AVR as a preamp.

I have found out that AVR is one of the reasons for the 3-ways to lack details as compared to my bookshelf. Once I removed AVR from the chain, the combination sounded cleaner.

I also found out that without a sub, the combination does not sound as good as simply using my bookshelves and a sub. But, I don't have another minidsp on hand with proper voltage output to add in the sub to the combo. So my experiment ends here unfortunately.

 

[jonfitch]

What is this mystery bookshelf with a 5.5" woofer you are using anyway?

 

[Pdxwayne]

What is this mystery bookshelf with a 5.5" woofer you are using anyway?

I didn't use the speaker with 5.5" woofer. I was using my Paradigm Persona B with 7" woofer. My 3 ways have 10" woofer.

The speakers with 5.5" woofer, if I am going to use, would be my Paradigm Studio 10.

 

[Ron Texas]

Get subs which go higher than usual and crossover to stand mounts at 200 or 250. Look at SVS Pro series

 

[Pdxwayne]

Get subs which go higher than usual and crossover to stand mounts at 200 or 250. Look at SVS Pro series

There is a trade off there. For subs to go that high, I think the woofers can't be too big. If woofer can't be big, then it won't have the capabilities to go 20 Hz at loud enough volume with low distortion.
Having heard and felt my twin 15" subs playing songs with tones down to 20hz, I can't go back to twin 10" nor twin 12"......