Chord DAVE Review (DAC & HP Amp)

[Trell]

Thanks. The blind test point makes a lot of sense, and I agree on that. That's really the only surefire way to see if there are subjective differences. And you're right, blind tests are sorely lacking in this industry, perhaps because they would be too revealing.

On the other hand, for someone who already believes that there is no possible audible difference between, say, the DACs on Amir's list, it doesn't make sense to even test anything. This is all just a waste of time. Because no measurement that shows a difference in available DACs will change their belief, even if the DAVE measured superior to the Topping D90SE in, say, THD. That's fine, I guess these DAC threads aren't for them. But at the same time they shouldn't cite this review as *supporting* their view, because the review doesn't add any evidence to support their belief, it just gives you comparative numbers with no way to associate them with subjective perceptions. What the review shows is that the DAVE is a surprisingly inferior DAC to many other ones, much cheaper, on sensible measurements of what a DAC should be doing, as well as suggesting poor build quality. I think that by itself is very important to know if you're considering buying the DAVE.

For me, objective measurements and subjective impressions work together. I haven't listened to every DAC, so I don't want to say that I can say for sure that there isn't a superior one like the far more expensive Vivaldi Apex (of which I just received an email inquiry). But I find it telling that I find the Topping D90SE sounds better to me than DAVE on my system, and has superior measurements as well. And so I responded to the dealer telling them they need to send the unit for independent testing to at least show the measurements are equal to the Topping DS90E before I even consider giving it a listen. (I doubt I'll hear back after pointing them to ASR as a possibility).

I realize many readers here will believe I'm deluded when I say I think the Topping D90SE is audibly different than the DAVE. No problem. But I suspect for some readers, especially ones who are considering buying the DAVE, it helps to hear the impressions of someone who has listened to and paid for both as an additional support for their suspicions based on the measurements.

It measures well enough to be audibly transparent like so many other DACs reviewed here that are far cheaper.

A buyer of the Chord DAC can have many excellent personal reasons for buying it, but that it’s audibly better is not one of them.

 

[Ken Tajalli]

$10,588 5 years ago, $14k now works out to 5.7%/year. Not outrageous IMO. We've had exchange rate changes since then of course, to complicate matters.

From the 2017 Hi-Fi+ review <https://hifiplus.com/articles/chord-electronics-dave-dac-headphone-amp/> (yes, have a laugh) I see it was £8k 5 years ago. Current UK price is £10k so that is 4.6%/year.

I believe rules changed, if I am not mistaken, they have to pay tax twice! in US and in UK. including other costs to ship to US and warranty handling, means price goes up in US.
In UK you can get one for £9K. Still very hefty!

Edir: the £9K includes sales tax of 20%. In reality it is £7500 plus sales Tax!
Hugo2 is £1580 + Tax

 

[Ken Tajalli]

Oops. Just realized I had left out the picture for the rear panel. Added it to the review just now.

It's OK, others did already.
And discovered a typo too, sharp eyes!

 

[Somafunk]

I’d love to know how many they’ve sold, it cant be more than 1000.

The sales will be way over 1000, and the mojo will have run into 10,000 ++

 

[NDRQ]

The sales will be way over 1000, and the mojo will have run into 10,000 ++

The world is full with fools and this brand is hyped, so i am not surprised at all.

 

[Ken Tajalli]

The sales will be way over 1000, and the mojo will have run into 10,000 ++

Try over 70K for mojo classic!
Mojo2 quickly ran into supply difficulty, it sold out very quickly, leaving customers waiting for weeks to get hold of one.
Some even created a black market on eBay!

 

[chesebert]

Look at my signature. My company buys hundreds of thousands of dollar worth of AV products per year. I know precisely the margins we get and standards in the industry. There is not remotely any kind of distributor agreement with 60% margin. If you mean that kind of dealer margin, that only comes for audio cables and sometimes in-wall speakers and such. Otherwise, the norm is 40% and it can actually drop to 25% for pro products. If you buy a ton of gear from a company, you may climb up to 45%. But that is it.

CHORD is in UK but yes, it is expensive to build such products and distribute them. Here though, the value is quite poor. I am sure the product is priced to market, not based on COGS. If you price it too low, traditional retailers won't carry it as there is not enough money in there for them.

I just saw your profile. I would rely on your data as my data points are old and likely one off deals. Thanks.

 

[chesebert]

Oops. Just realized I had left out the picture for the rear panel. Added it to the review just now.

Yaaah, correct 75ohm BNC.

 

[Trell]

I believe rules changed, if I am not mistaken, they have to pay tax twice! in US and in UK. including other costs to ship to US and warranty handling, means price goes up in US.
In UK you can get one for £9K. Still very hefty!

An US importer should not have to pay VAT when importing from UK/EU, though import duties/taxes may be added. If this really has changed, UK is in a deep sh*t.

The major reason for price differences in EU/UK and USA for many/most products, apart from exchange rates vagaries, is that in EU a site selling to consumers has to list the price including VAT while that is not a general requirement in USA (various state laws, etc). USA does not have VAT, but some states have a sales tax, though, which are very much lower.

Another reason is that the manufacturer have different prices for their products depending on geographical location.

 

[AudioSceptic]

I believe rules changed, if I am not mistaken, they have to pay tax twice! in US and in UK. including other costs to ship to US and warranty handling, means price goes up in US.
In UK you can get one for £9K. Still very hefty!

Thanks. I'm going by "list price" to keep it simple for checking the rate of price increase.

 

[Ken Tajalli]

An US importer should not have to pay VAT when importing from UK/EU, though import duties/taxes may be added.

The major reason for price differences in EU/UK and USA for many/most products, apart from exchange rates vagaries, is that in EU a site selling to consumers has to list the price including VAT while that is not a general requirement in USA (various state laws, etc). USA does not have VAT, but some states have a sales tax, though, which are very much lower.

Another reason is that the manufacturer have different prices for their products depending on geographical location.

Income Tax, not sales Tax.

 

[Massimo]

Steve Huff is right for once. This thing is definitely spooky. From his review: "The DAVE is airy and specializes in presenting your music in a clear, detailed 3 dimensional way with top shelf imaging. I have never heard a presentation so real, so eerie and spooky at times."

 

[Trell]

Income Tax, not sales Tax.

What do you mean here? Do you say that an US importer of goods can't get deduction for income tax paid by workers in other countries is "double tax"?

 

[DonR]

Steve Huff is right for once. This thing is definitely spooky. From his review: "The DAVE is airy and specializes in presenting your music in a clear, detailed 3 dimensional way with top shelf imaging. I have never heard a presentation so real, so eerie and spooky at times."

No mention of tighter bass or galaxy-wode soundstage. What about those liquid, chocolatey mids? He gets a C- from me. Must try harder.

 

[Toni Mas]

Income Tax, not sales Tax.

Taxes, what taxes are you talking about? If the net ex works value of this thing is into the 50-200€ range , as any state of the art similar stuff...

 

[Ken Tajalli]

What do you mean here? Do you say that an US importer of goods can't get deduction for income tax paid by workers in other countries is "double tax"?

 

[Garrincha]

I am going to give Chord a small credit:
They have only Four DACs. Each one has different features and is in a different price bracket, so no redundant device.
They do not keep churning new stuff, just to sell the same thing in a new box.

You can also put it that way: They try to sell the same product for years on, the Dave was originally released 2015, that´s 7 years, without any update or modification. In the Hifi world with products involving chips, this is a bit insane or lazy or absurd or all of this.

 

[AudioSceptic]

Thanks. The blind test point makes a lot of sense, and I agree on that. That's really the only surefire way to see if there are subjective differences. And you're right, blind tests are sorely lacking in this industry, perhaps because they would be too revealing. (Personally, I believe many "celebrity" designers don't trust blind tests of random people because they think they can hear things others can't. More practical engineers on the other hand working at Apple, for example, don't want to take the chance of designing a product that doesn't sell so they will do blind tests to make sure they tune it properly).

On the other hand, for someone who already believes that there is no possible audible difference between, say, the DACs on Amir's list, it doesn't make sense to even test anything. This is all just a waste of time. Because no measurement that shows a difference in available DACs will change their belief, even if the DAVE measured superior to the Topping D90SE in, say, THD. That's fine, I guess these DAC threads aren't for them. But at the same time they shouldn't cite this review as *supporting* their view, because the review doesn't add any evidence to support their belief, it just gives you comparative numbers with no way to associate them with subjective perceptions. What the review shows is that the DAVE is a surprisingly inferior DAC to many other ones, much cheaper, on sensible measurements of what a DAC should be doing, as well as suggesting poor build quality. I think that by itself is very important to know if you're considering buying the DAVE.

For me, objective measurements and subjective impressions work together. I haven't listened to every DAC, so I don't want to say that I can say for sure that there isn't a superior one like the far more expensive Vivaldi Apex (of which I just received an email inquiry). But I find it telling that I find the Topping D90SE sounds better to me than DAVE on my system, and has superior measurements as well. And so I responded to the dealer telling them they need to send the unit for independent testing to at least show the measurements are equal to the Topping DS90E before I even consider giving it a listen. (I doubt I'll hear back after pointing them to ASR as a possibility).

I realize many readers here will believe I'm deluded when I say I think the Topping D90SE is audibly different than the DAVE. No problem. But I suspect for some readers, especially ones who are considering buying the DAVE, it helps to hear the impressions of someone who has listened to and paid for both as an additional support for their suspicions based on the measurements.

Not deluded at all.

I know that you must have other things to do, but I'm curious what you might make of other, cheaper DACs. There are now many, many with measurements as good as or better than the DAVE's. Surely there can't be something special about the D90SE other than it being at the top of the SINAD chart?

 

[Ken Tajalli]

You can also put it that way: They try to sell the same product for years on, the Dave was originally released 2015, that´s 7 years, without any update or modification. In the Hifi world with products involving chips, this is a bit insane or lazy or absurd or all of this.

You are correct in your second assertion that it is absurd not to update.
But in reality the technology nor the components have improved over that last good few years, so HiFi regular updates is a bit of a scam.
At least when you buy a Chord, you are not enticed to upgrade for no real reason the next year, because the pro or plus version is out.
When there is a 2 ! it is a real update, not a pretend one.
Look at cell phone market! for the past few years, the upgrades are mostly superficial, yet there is a new Samsung out, a new iPhone out! and cellphone developement has the largest money thrown at it, yet the updates are minimal.
Chord attitude is: This is what we have, performance is good for many years, until we can make a real break through.
Look at Mojo2! it is a real improvement over Mojo.

 

[Trell]

So income taxes paid by workers in other countries amounts to double taxation?

This is real dumb.