Carver Crimson 275 Review (Tube Amp)

[amirm]

I would love to see this happen, but just at this point have no faith that it will. But I commend you on fighting the good fight.

There is a wise saying: "people overestimate the nature of change in the beginning, and underestimate it in the long run." We have left the former stage, and are now in the latter. A ton of companies take notice when we test their products and value getting top ratings. It is not commonplace to be sure but the trend is accelerating. Just to show you our reach, here is a comparison against stereophile.com:

We are in blue, they are in orange. 2.8 times more traffic with double the visit duration and engagement (5 page views vs 2.45).

I don't take any of this for granted by the way and work every day to provide even more reliable data for you all. Ultimately it is the weight of all that data that is carrying the water forward.

 

[mhardy6647]

There is a lot of history that led to this. Paul post measurements of two amps he had on another forum. His posts were deleted and he was forced to then come here and post them. Upon such posting, Carver dealers denied the results forcing Paul to fork out nearly $3,000 to buy a new one. And me testing it during snow and floods that we had to deal with. Even then, there were still rocks being thrown at us by the dealers and the company (one going as far as posting profanities here). So no wonder and folks fight back as in their mind, justice is not being served.

The right way to deal with this from day one would have been for the company to measure the amplifier and respond with data. And to reach out to me and Paul and figure out what is going on, and take corrective action.

To the extent you think you can battle this out, then this is the reaction you get. Companies need to realize the power of objective measurements and learn how to deal with it, both from PR and product point of view. The era of just dismissing it with rolling your eyes has come and gone.

Well put.

I've prattled on way too much about this whole affray already, and I am repeating myself , but I just want to say this explicitly and speaking only for myself.

I'd have zero qualms with this amp if there weren't an explicit claim that it can deliver 75 wpc, and an implicit claim that it can do it broadband and at low THD. It can not.

If the company had said "When connected to [even] modern loudspeakers, it has all of the performance of* a classical 75 wpc tube amplifier, in a smaller, lighter, cooler running package" they'd fall right in line with traditional audiophile niche marketing strategy and tactics, and I'd be fine with that.
It's crossing over from the unicorns and rainbows of "the high end" to the arena of cold hard specs that, for me, is the kicker.

____________________
* [EDIT] or, less implicitly quantitatively, "delivers all of the musical satisfaction of"

 

[Jim Clark]

Thank you for clarifying those things, Mr. Sarmento.

Would you be able to confirm that the Crimson 275 is spec'd with 15W Edcor output transformers? I have asked that question to Frank Malitz/Bob Carver several times and have not heard back. There are at least two units purchased from authorized dealers with 15w Edcor transformers in them. It would be helpful to know if this is OEM specified.

I think some of chatter has to do with the perception that there is a lack of transparency about the amplifier. Mr. Malitz has not provided straightforward answers to simple questions--instead he uses sales techniques to respond. For example. when asked about the PT and OPTs in this amp, Frank responded with paragraphs explaining that many speaker manufacturers recommend the Crimson 275 with their loudspeakers and they wouldn't do so if it were not a lovely sounding amplifier.

That may be very true. But the question is a simple one--Were the Edcor transformers specified in the design or appropriate for the design?

While I appreciate how some may feel that the social media "pitchforks" and "mob" are out in full force, I think it's important to keep something in mind: Folks have legitimate, simple questions about the amplifier to which they cannot get responses. This amplifier cost many of us $3k (with tax) and when we get evasive, salesy responses--or, in the alternative, radio silence--it only increases the skepticism.

For the record, I love Bob Carver's history and him as a person. The amp does indeed sound good with my high efficiency speakers. I'd love to have Amir and any ASR gang over to blind A-B it against some of the top performing spec-wise amplifiers. That's part of the fun.

That said, folks have raised these salient questions to which there has been utterly no response--just conclusory statements by Malitz and now Bob. Maybe you could help answer them as your firm looks to have built a good number of copies.

1. Is mounting the DC restorer circuit by gluing it vertically to the chassis part of the design?

2. Is mounting the meter to the chassis by gluing it part of the design?

3. Are the Edcor 15w OPTs part of the design?

4. What gauge hookup wire is supposed to be running from the PCB to the speaker output terminals?

5. Does the design-manufacturing process allow for substitution of Panasonic film caps with Suntan brand or other lesser known caps?

6. Have there been reports of transformer hum? I have owned two units and both hum/buzz at the transformers with no signal and volume totally attenuated (not a sound coming from the speakers, but buzz/hum coming from the transformers (all 3)?

7. Frank Malitz stated there was a problem with transformers when the vendor deviated from specification, and that resolved. Would that vendor be Edcor? What can be done to silence the transformers for those with those issues?

8. Grounding. Are you aware of what many of us view as a problem with the grounding scheme in this amplifier? Specifically, several of us have the neutral running to fuse and no chassis grounding or ground to earth. Do you believe these scheme is safe and acceptable?

This unit is supposed to have a 5 year warranty and many of us are just trying to figure out where things stand.

I'm not trying to come at anybody. I like the amp. I'm just trying to navigate through this and Frank Malitz and Bob just say: (a) the amp is awesome; (b) the amp is totally safe: (c) everyone who hears it loves it; (d) Amir and associates test it incorrectly.

I'm sure you can appreciate that when a consumer spends $3k on something they want to know they bought what was sold to them and it is safe.

Thank you for your time and any information you can provide. I can assure you that many consumers these days appreciate substantively meaningful responses form the manufacturers/dealers of the equipment they buy at this price level. Thank you!

Sir,
Bob responded to all of these attacks with the statement below. If you are not happy with your purchase, return it for a full refund. I'm sorry for the lack of response from Mr Malitz.. I haven't been in contact with Frank. I received the note below from Bob and his assistant Edward. If your amp doesn't sound better than comparable products driving loudspeakers, return the unit for a refund. If you have a concern for grounding safety, return the unit for inspection and direct ground to chassis at no charge, Carver pays shipping. If Jim Clark Stereo is your dealer, you would have already contacted me, knowing I'm here to help. Contact your dealer or go to bobcarver.com, contact us . If your dealer is not helpful or unclear in any way, I'll help with your return. I have had one request for the grounding change and one return. Most people will never consider returning their amp due to sound quality, they love the musical performance. Let me know if I can help anyone with dealer issues. I'll hook you up. Jim Clark


It has come to my attention that my amplifier design has come under sharp criticism on this forum. I am compelled to say that the 275 is safe, as it is wired and assembled, and performs as it was designed. If a customer were to chose to utilize the earth ground pin of the IEC Inlet (to be connected to the chassis), this can be done at no cost. This design was well considered, and follows a long history of excellent products.

The 275 is a powerful, easy to listen to amplifier. I am happy with its design. In fact, this is one of the best designs I have produced. If for any reason a customer is disappointed in the performance or sound quality of this amplifier, they may return it for a full refund. The general reception of the 275 to date has been that of a high quality design, one that does not disappoint in any respect. The performance as it was measured by Amir does not do justice to the sound engineering practices that the 275 represents.

I am not going to explain or attempt to refute the reasoning behind each criticism Amir has made, the product speaks for itself and stands on its long history of satisfaction. These amplifiers were not designed to be “world beaters” in measurement domain, but instead, they were designed to sound the best and to do so at an affordable price in relation to other products they might be fairly compared to. It is unfortunate for this type of bad press to make such an impression on people not directly familiar with the amplifier, or the design and its goals.

In conclusion, if someone were to come to an audio show and criticize the sound in a room with music playing through a 275, it would be much harder to make the argument that it’s in any way a deficient product or design. I stand by that. The character of this amplifier is exactly what I wanted it to sound like.

 

[Jim Clark]

Bottlehead,
It was brought to my attention that you are having issues returning the 275 you bought. I would like to know what dealer sold you that amp. The serial number shows its nearly 2 years old and has the lighter gauge wiring, than units of the last 2 years or so. If you have your receipt , I can help you return it. Jim Clark. Jim Clark Stereo.

 

[Laserjock]

Nice to see cooler heads and service prevail.

Much better.

 

[wwasilev]

It would be nice to see Bob Carver and Co address the output power issue. If it's truly 15W, then the advertising material should be changed - at the very least.

 

[whazzup]

Not a lawyer, but seems based on the various responses from Carver & Co. so far, all they're willing to do are offering settlements, while maintaining silence over the transformer wattage. So as not to publicly admit any wrongdoings I suppose.

 

[tomelex]

Here is what the regs say:

https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-16/chapter-I/subchapter-D/part-432#p-432.1(b)

I am not sure what a violation would entail as far as actionable process though on this one.

 

[MaxBuck]

Sir,
Bob responded to all of these attacks with the statement below. If you are not happy with your purchase, return it for a full refund. I'm sorry for the lack of response from Mr Malitz.. I haven't been in contact with Frank. I received the note below from Bob and his assistant Edward. If your amp doesn't sound better than comparable products driving loudspeakers, return the unit for a refund. If you have a concern for grounding safety, return the unit for inspection and direct ground to chassis at no charge, Carver pays shipping. If Jim Clark Stereo is your dealer, you would have already contacted me, knowing I'm here to help. Contact your dealer or go to bobcarver.com, contact us . If your dealer is not helpful or unclear in any way, I'll help with your return. I have had one request for the grounding change and one return. Most people will never consider returning their amp due to sound quality, they love the musical performance. Let me know if I can help anyone with dealer issues. I'll hook you up. Jim Clark


It has come to my attention that my amplifier design has come under sharp criticism on this forum. I am compelled to say that the 275 is safe, as it is wired and assembled, and performs as it was designed. If a customer were to chose to utilize the earth ground pin of the IEC Inlet (to be connected to the chassis), this can be done at no cost. This design was well considered, and follows a long history of excellent products.

The 275 is a powerful, easy to listen to amplifier. I am happy with its design. In fact, this is one of the best designs I have produced. If for any reason a customer is disappointed in the performance or sound quality of this amplifier, they may return it for a full refund. The general reception of the 275 to date has been that of a high quality design, one that does not disappoint in any respect. The performance as it was measured by Amir does not do justice to the sound engineering practices that the 275 represents.

I am not going to explain or attempt to refute the reasoning behind each criticism Amir has made, the product speaks for itself and stands on its long history of satisfaction. These amplifiers were not designed to be “world beaters” in measurement domain, but instead, they were designed to sound the best and to do so at an affordable price in relation to other products they might be fairly compared to. It is unfortunate for this type of bad press to make such an impression on people not directly familiar with the amplifier, or the design and its goals.

In conclusion, if someone were to come to an audio show and criticize the sound in a room with music playing through a 275, it would be much harder to make the argument that it’s in any way a deficient product or design. I stand by that. The character of this amplifier is exactly what I wanted it to sound like.

It's not clear who is responsible (the author of) various paragraphs and sentences in this post. Perhaps clarification is in order.

The Carver company (whatever its corporate structure and registration, if any, may be) appears to me to be a very opaque, shape-shifting entity with dubious points of ultimate responsibility. That doesn't engender consumer confidence.

Regardless of whether the performance and safety issues are addressed, currently there's no way I could feel comfortable purchasing anything from this bunch.

 

[Greg P]

With all due respect, but you have a little slice of the internet here. How do you propose to impose your will on an entire industry?

I don't know about "imposing his will," since this is not a tin horn dictator issue, but it is clear that he is having an impact. For me personally, I recently purchased a set of speakers and a DAC based on his *objective* evaluations: I have a very bad tin ear when it comes to responding to hifi foofla.

 

[traderitch]

It's not clear who is responsible (the author of) various paragraphs and sentences in this post.

This thread can be difficult to follow.
The first paragraph ends with Jim Clark.
The following content was a cut paste from Bob Carvers post a few days ago.

 

[Greg P]

Sir,
Bob responded to all of these attacks with the statement below. .....

So, questions are "attacks" and a "statement" is the answers. In other words, a non-response.

 

[Travis]

Simple: measure the amplifier themselves and post the results if they differ from mine. Otherwise, change the product advertising to state what it can really output.

I would also like them to seriously looking the grounding and safety of the design.

Didn't they concede that point by offering anyone a "fix" if they wanted? Or maybe I misunderstood what was actually said/offered by that offer?

 

[Blumlein 88]

Didn't they concede that point by offering anyone a "fix" if they wanted? Or maybe I misunderstood what was actually said/offered by that offer?

Yeah, it appears they offered to fix the ground or give a refund. As a customer cannot ask for much more. The only thing left is being transparent about the power. At least for those who visit here there is no need for that even. We know what the real power is.

For an owner wondering what to replace it with if they get a refund, there are several C-J's and ARCs of either 75 or 100 watts that can be purchased for less money which already have the power supply caps replaced on US Audiomart. I believe those are much better made, they've been tested as meeting power spec, and they'll appreciate in value over time I think. Whether they'll sound the same or not I don't know.

 

[jbhiller]

There is a lot of history that led to this. Paul post measurements of two amps he had on another forum. His posts were deleted and he was forced to then come here and post them. Upon such posting, Carver dealers denied the results forcing Paul to fork out nearly $3,000 to buy a new one. And me testing it during snow and floods that we had to deal with. Even then, there were still rocks being thrown at us by the dealers and the company (one going as far as posting profanities here). So no wonder and folks fight back as in their mind, justice is not being served.

The right way to deal with this from day one would have been for the company to measure the amplifier and respond with data. And to reach out to me and Paul and figure out what is going on, and take corrective action.

To the extent you think you can battle this out, then this is the reaction you get. Companies need to realize the power of objective measurements and learn how to deal with it, both from PR and product point of view. The era of just dismissing it with rolling your eyes has come and gone.

I agree. I'm probably a subjectivist. And, yes, I agree.

To me, and I think this is what irks so many people, is the BS. The argument runs: That the BS comes in form of marketing. Then it comes in the form of arguing with nonsense that strains logic. Then the BS comes in a form of an absentee landlord--quiet.

If this amp were my passion, I would respond to claims that the amp doesn't measure well, has quality control issues, and a hotly, HOTLY, debatable grounding scheme, which some say is "perfectly safe" yet others say could electrocute you on varying levels.

And if you think I'm wrong... Lest we forget what Amir says above-- There were, in fact, nasty responses from Carver's largest dealer. Another large dealer, Music Direct, told an owner it's too late, you're past our 60 day return window (and rightly so), but...

There are all sorts of components to an audio purchase. I'd argue each purchase has some level of thought as to each of these categories of things we look at: stats, price, ergonomics, visual appeal, reliability, and so on. The problem with this piece of gear is that it has potential negatives in several categories. When you are competing for each consumer's $3,000 you cannot allow more than one, categorical, negative here. The Company and Bob's responses self-inflicted more damage.

 

[jbhiller]

"The right way to deal with this from day one would have been for the company to measure the amplifier and respond with data. And to reach out to me [Amir] and Paul and figure out what is going on, and take corrective action.

To the extent you think you can battle this out, then this is the reaction you get."

This is exactly the point. And, the above position, doesn't prohibit the company, while taking him up on his offer, from saying it sounds good and explaining what's going on with the build. Look, even initial bad press can be good press. Frank and Bob, if you created something that sounds good don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. Engage in the dialogue. Explain and show the windings on your power transformer and OPTs.

If there were Internet forums with claims that Primaluna, Luxman, McIntosh amplifiers had these issues, would we would see responses including postings of videos with reasoning and photographs?

 

[warnerwh]

If it's within the 5 year warranty period shouldn't the amp still be returnable? It doesn't perform the way it is advertised to. Doesn't the warranty cover the performance? Having only 20% of the power claimed I believe is a reasonable argument for a return. A few people are arguing it sounds good and are happy. I don't understand how someone could be happy after being deceived by a company. It's not like you can't actually get what you paid for from other companies that make tube amps.

 

[whazzup]

"The right way to deal with this from day one would have been for the company to measure the amplifier and respond with data. And to reach out to me [Amir] and Paul and figure out what is going on, and take corrective action.

To the extent you think you can battle this out, then this is the reaction you get."

This is exactly the point. And, the above position, doesn't prohibit the company, while taking him up on his offer, from saying it sounds good and explaining what's going on with the build. Look, even initial bad press can be good press. Frank and Bob, if you created something that sounds good don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. Engage in the dialogue. Explain and show the windings on your power transformer and OPTs.

If there were Internet forums with claims that Primaluna, Luxman, McIntosh amplifiers had these issues, would we would see responses including postings of videos with reasoning and photographs?

Will need an actual lawyer to weigh in, but suppose a dealer or the man himself publicly admits (with data) that the transformer is a nominal 15/17 watter (and not what is on their marketing literature), will it then potentially open them up to lawsuits using their own statements as evidence? In my mind it's a factor in why they're not saying anything more atm, so as not to shoot themselves in the foot.

 

[jbhiller]

I will reply a bit more here before I revert to my default lurking mode.

As far as safety, you will need to make up your own mind. I have never seen one and can just go by a few pictures here, but it doesn’t appear to meet the requirements for double insulated floating chassis equipment. But safety is a relative thing, my house was built almost 100 years ago and a fair amount of its wiring is still the original two wire loose insulated knob and tube with two prong outlets and no safety ground. Nowhere close to modern electrical code. I sleep just fine at night.

I appreciate the testing that I find at this site. The tests here show that it does not meet its advertised power output. Based on the test results I have seen here, if you want a 75W amp you should probably look elsewhere. I personally don’t understand the lure of tube amps in audio, but I don’t judge those that want them. But if you don’t feel that your $3,000 was well spent, I understand from Bob’s post that you can return it and get a refund.

What I tried to articulate in my first post is that all of us here surely recognize that the “high end” audio business is nearly 100% based on what many would consider fraud. Knowing that, why is there such outrage over an amp that doesn’t meet its advertised power and isn’t certified to modern safety standards? Why are some espousing criminal actions? If you went to your local PD would you expect them or any DA to have any interest in criminal action? Your other choice would be to file a lawsuit which would certainly cost more in the long run than you spent on the amp, with no guarantee of any outcome favorable to you. But to those of you so outraged over this amp, you better not look at other high end audio unless you want to live your life in a continual state of anger.

You state that the amp sounds good to you, so it is in general providing the utility that you were looking for when you bought it. So take the test results and construction evaluation here and make up your own mind. But let’s all just try to get along, this looking at the world through different “camps” only creates discord. Besides, the last time I went camping in the mountains I went alone, I am in my own camp.

And to be clear, I am not now, nor have ever been employed or done any work in any audio business. I don’t know any one in any Carver business, now or in the past. I have not spoken or corresponded with anyone on this subject except what I have posted here. I am just an engineer that has dabbled in home audio (buying product and DIY) for 40+ years.

Some of you posting, do you have a financial interest in any audio business? You should state so if you do.

"What I tried to articulate in my first post is that all of us here surely recognize that the “high end” audio business is nearly 100% based on what many would consider fraud.".

Fraud exists. But nearly100% is based on fraud?

Tests or no tests... Have you heard an amazing hi fidelity stereo system? ... Likely one that costs a lot of money? It would bring you to tears and the name Topping, SML or what have you would vanish from your brain. [Granted, I've heard expensive stuff that sounded no better than mid-fidelity audio]. The point is the entire industry is not fraudulent. And, the other point is, there's no way with a gun pointed to my head, that I would take the top rated amplifier on this site, Benchmark, over something else that would be called audio jewelry or something.

Carver's problem is grossly weak tests versus ballsy representations, coupled with build quality issues (including a safety concern)--to the tune of $3k.

 

[jbhiller]

Will need an actual lawyer to weigh in, but suppose a dealer or the man himself publicly admits (with data) that the transformer is a nominal 15/17 watter (and not what is on their marketing literature), will it then potentially open them up to lawsuits using their own statements as evidence? In my mind it's a factor in why they're not saying anything more atm, so as not to shoot themselves in the foot.

Exactly. They lost the battles and the entire war. They cannot say more because 'more' would involve explaining it, which would involve admissions. It's over.