Can't we all just get along?

[markus]

Just yesterday a new system was invented that uses multiple speakers. It's called multichannel or similar. Put on your favorite stereo tune, engage your favorite upmixer and "bam!" you suddenly realize what is missing in 2 speaker stereo.

P.S. Still couldn't find the proper emoticon.

 

[MattHooper]

That's the same thing every time I have attended the Chicago SO in Symphony Hall, from every different location on the main floor or first balcony. The percussion section in particular shifts almost entirely across the stage in some seats when one closes the eyes. From many seats, closing my eyes resulted in sort of a wide mono sound with very little precise location.

I have found "imaging" - that is identifiable locations of instruments - happens quite readily when I close my eyes at the symphony or practically any other unamplified performance. Admittedly I like to sit closer than many when I can, but it's still there (even if less pin-point) at greater distances when I close my eyes.

A problem is of course debating what would count as "precise" imaging, given we would be inherently exchanging totally subjective impressions.

Thus stereo imaging in a reproduction system, as far as I am concerned, simply provides a believable illusion of a real space without it being a direct representation of a real space.

I think I'd agree there. In many cases the use of multi-micing is actually in service of being able to restore a sonic balance, or create a sonic picture, that mimics what we hear at the live event. (This is because microphones don't "hear" sound as we do, and so have to be manipulated and mixed to better represent what we hear).

Another thing to consider for the "Live Music Doesn't Image Like That!" folks is this: When we attend live music we are almost inevitably watching the performance.
We know that our senses work together; that what we see can influence what or how we hear something. There are obviously countless examples, but the typical TV sound is one. The sound is simply coming from speakers "somewhere around" the image, but watching the image it seems to be mapped right on to the mouths of the actors. An extreme version of this is drive-in movies. The location difference between where the sound is occurring - a speaker beside your car, or your car's stereo system - and the far away image is huge. And yet our brain tends to map the sound to the image "it's coming from way over there, right from that actor's mouth!"

Similarly, if we are attending a jazz or orchestral (or whatever) concert, our brains are mapping the sound to the various musicians on stage. The combination of sight and sound makes for "precise imaging" in this respect.

One could say that precision in stereo imaging, while artificial in of itself, nonetheless does re-create an aspect of attending real life music performances - it's giving us something like the precision of location we'd have when attending the real thing.

 

[Somafunk]

If you want the next level in experience of 2- channel music, you have to involve some of the wallreflections ( if you can and have a big room ) because the stereo system IS flawed. Its nowhere near the real music event. If you dont believe me - try doing your own recordings .

This is not controversial at all.

No thanks, 4.3m x 3.3m x 2.4m / 34m2 room set up with a variety of 19 GIK treatment panels, with 15m2 room coverage and set up with REW/Umik mic then using roon parametric eq, if I wanted to hear reflections I’d sit on the toilet and listen to the mini HomePod in that room.

 

[sejarzo]

I have found "imaging" - that is identifiable locations of instruments - happens quite readily when I close my eyes at the symphony or practically any other unamplified performance. Admittedly I like to sit closer than many when I can, but it's still there (even if less pin-point) at greater distances when I close my eyes.

A problem is of course debating what would count as "precise" imaging, given we would be inherently exchanging totally subjective impressions.

Yeah...I don't like to sit close. A few rows up in the first balcony is my preferred spot.

By "precise" I mean both identifiable and correct. When with eyes closed, I hear the triangle sound like something 5 feet on a side and on the wrong side of the stage, that's not precise.

 

[TrevC]

I would love to read a respectful response to Danny's statements and allegations from ASR. I'm not interested in a pissin' match from forum members.

The guy is plain dishonest. The audiofiles he posted didn't involve any speakers at all.

 

[tw 2022]

I have to admit I'm a bit disappointed in the amount of press and attention Danny is getting around here. Is should be clear to everyone within about 5 minutes that Danny is essentially a throwback to the 70s/80s audio industry. He believes that music reproduction is inherently mysterious and beyond the ken of mere mortals. Only the Truly Great Men(tm) - the Gurus - can help you navigate getting High End sound. He obviously and deliberately cultivates a "Guru and his disciples" dynamic in everything he does. ASR is founded on more or less diametrically opposed ideas.

The interaction with Danny and ASR could only ever have one possible outcome, and that is confrontation and emnity. I would much rather that Amir and Rick would have chosen a different set of kits and just ignored GR Research altogether. It was obvious from the outset that something like the LGK was absolutely incapable of measuring well according to ASR methodology regardless of the inherent quality of the driver, and so it just strikes me that this was something of a theatrical exercise rather than an honest attempt at discovery.

And, it should be recognized that it's far from the first time Danny has run afoul of internet communities. He's been run out or banned from many of the online communities due to the inherent volatility of dealing with him and his disciples.

Oh, well. Mostly my own fault for continuing to pay any attention when I realized that Danny was involved.

the good news is: there are real "guru's"(i hate that term) out there that actually do good work.. and that have the skills to improve many speakers at a fraction of what Danny is doing..

 

[mhardy6647]

[Just like the perception of depth in a hologram - that goes way beyond the flat hologram plate, or a VR set - where the eyes (brain) see objects way to the left/right of eyes' actual axes (without any wall bouncing ) The "truth truth" is that you cannot achieve it with just two _point_ sources, you need "arrays" of source info...]

Thus Sonic Holography

https://worldradiohistory.com/hd2/IDX-Audio/Archive-Audio-IDX/IDX/80s/Audio-1981-04-OCR-Page-0031.pdf#search=%22sonic%20holography%22

Speaking of the 70s and 80s and gurus...

 

[TimoJ]

Is this real Danny R commenting on Erin's community channel?

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCW_IqM21u0J-zsKtCq4Gj2w/community?lc=UgzbIVin3lmtEgxE62V4AaABAg&lb=UgkxDKW2Xl1qrmubMCJSQ8_YY4ua_JEy44ac

 

[Doodski]

Is this real Danny R commenting on Erin's community channel?

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCW_IqM21u0J-zsKtCq4Gj2w/community?lc=UgzbIVin3lmtEgxE62V4AaABAg&lb=UgkxDKW2Xl1qrmubMCJSQ8_YY4ua_JEy44ac

If ASR where so insignificant and a nobody not worth mentioning then he would not be whining at Erin's YouTube channel and attempting to create a alliance to empower himself. Go make some more LGK speakers for exorbitant prices and pump them to no end @ Dannie Richie. While you are at it sell more useless AC cords and overpriced speaker cable. Snake oil de jour!

 

[Pops106]

The guy is plain dishonest. The audiofiles he posted didn't involve any speakers at all.

How did you come across this TrevC ?

 

[Pops106]

If ASR where so insignificant and a nobody not worth mentioning then he would not be whining at Erin's YouTube channel and attempting to create a alliance to empower himself. Go make some more LGK speakers for exorbitant prices and pump them to no end @ Dannie Richie. While you are at it sell more useless AC cords and overpriced speaker cable. Snake oil de jour!

As well as Audioholics.

I have to say I have only been on ASR 5 mins to post some REW bits for review but I'm not sure I am good fit with you guys.

Some of you seem incredibly talented and subjective but there does seem to be a witch hunt type style to the place.

I will be running out of youtubers to watch as this rate...

Goodbye all

@amirm can you point me in the direction of the delete button or press it for me, much appreciated and all the best everyone

 

[rdenney]

I’m not sure where your response is coming from. My question was in regards to the practice of listening to a single speaker as a means of providing subjective feedback on how it sounds, when the end user will never listen to the product that way. It’s applicable to every speaker review done on this site, not just the GR LGKs. As I said, that doesn’t make much sense to me but I am interested to learn why it’s considered acceptable or even preferred by many folks here.

Toole measured the responses of actual listeners and the data showed that conclusions drawn for single speakers are consistent with but more discriminating than conclusions drawn from pairs of speakers. These were controlled preference tests. Stereo pairs were less discriminating, meaning that preferences were not as clear. That’s what people mean by it being a distraction.

Rick “Toole’s research is not a secret” Denney

 

[ryanosaur]

I will be running out of youtubers to watch as this rate...

Less YT-ers to watch would not be a bad thing. Open-Mic syndrome is very real and dangerous.

Goodbye all

We hardly know you! No need to go. Some folk are more opinionated than others, and like all fora... not necessarily ashamed to edit themselves. Hang out, participate for a while. Decide later.

 

[TrevC]

How did you come across this TrevC ?

By comparing his "recording" and the song on youtube, using headphones.

 

[goat76]

I'm not sure it can - at least not from a stereo source. Pretty much the only thing that can be engineered in a stereo recording is the amount of each instrument in each speaker - width (between the speakers) if you like. There may be cues in the form of comb filtering effects from reflections, etc, but these are simply interactions between the recording studio and the mics - and can't be controlled.

The rest of it - width beyond the speakers, depth, height - is invented in our brains based on how the soundwaves reach our ears in the listening room. I'd guess more than half the stereo effect we hear comes from interactions between speakers and room rather than stuff actually in the recording. Same speakers/different room - different result. I would also expect (though much research - as you point out - needed) same speakers, same room, different ears, different brain - different result.

If we all would take turns listening to the same speakers in the same room, I'm pretty sure we will hear pretty much the same depth in the recordings. It's just that our explanation of what we just heard will differ based on our past experiences. If we all listen to another pair of speakers and they differ from the first pair, maybe with less depth but a wider soundstage, I'm sure we all will come to that conclusion.

 

[amirm]

If we all would take turns listening to the same speakers in the same room, I'm pretty sure we will hear pretty much the same depth in the recordings. It's just that our explanation of what we just heard will differ based on our past experiences.

Yet you ask a reviewer to write about such experience. Has anyone, ever made sense of reviewer comments in these regards? They change a power cable and talk about who the soundstage become wider. On what basis do you fine any such commentary reliable? And useful?

 

[SIY]

I'm reading about the magic speaker right now. Seems like it tries very hard to act like a dipole speaker in-room by minimizing early reflections with intense directivity control while producing 'late reflections' with the side firing time delayed drivers.

This is honestly pretty awesome! Thank you for sharing.

That was one of his early attempts and it was a pretty great speaker. The stuff he did at NHT refined and simplified those ideas, and he added in some very clever ideas for bass control in speakers like the 3.3 (which I used as the basis for my own speakers). Somewhere on-line, there's an interview he did with Audio Critic which is massively worth reading.

edit: Here it is.

 

[goat76]

As a former DIY:er and reader of many theories ( including Tooles ) and have tried most of them - I dont see ASR or GR research as the only true sites to learn from .

As Goat76 wrote earlier , testing and only listening to only one speaker in a room doesnt show 100% how two loudspeakers in a room , in stereo will perform.

It might be interesting though, to see the freq. linearity of the speaker and also the distortion measurements .

Tonycollinet wrote ( rightly ) that the stereoimage appear in the brain of the listener, and in two channel listening there are reflections from the walls thats playing a big part on how we experience spatial qualities, the ” illusion” of the recorded event .

It takes a lot of experience to install two loudspeakers correctly in a room, because the stereo system is so flawed, you really need the influence of the reflections from the walls in the room, to have a positive impact on what you hear . This demands knowledge of ” the optimal delay” for such reflexes in 2 channel sound . 20-25 ms delay of the wall reflections can positively contribute to a good spatial experience - ruling out small rooms where this is impossible.

ASR or GR research dont mention this , probably because they have not enough experience , or they just dont care much for installement.

Or maybe they realise that the perfect installed two channel system in a specific room with its psycoacoustic impact, dont obey by any fixed rule , impossible to explain in writing … in the end, you have to trust your ears .

Hi Tangband.

The stereo system is flawed like you say and some reflections from the listening room are probably needed, but no more than just masking the most obvious stereo flaws and enhancing the music experience. Listening to music in an anechoic chamber is not very pleasant according to people with that type of experience.

But the reflections from the listening room can never help us hear a more accurate reproduction of the room in the recording, they can only blur out the recorded reflections that otherwise would appear (tricked by the stereo illusion) to come from any point in the phantom image somewhere between the speakers. The reflections from the listening room have all been generated by the two speakers' positions in the room instead of the points where the different sounds in the recording should have come from otherwise (besides the hard-panned stuff), therefore the reflections can only blur our view into the recorded room.

In short, a higher ratio of direct sound vs reflective sound will give us better insight into the recording.

 

[mhardy6647]

Kenneth Kantor was very active on several audio forums for a while, too. He always responded to speaker questions & discussions with great clarity, accuracy, tact, good will, and good humor -- although, as is so often the case with actual experts, he was often harassed for his replies. This even happened when, umm, some of us pointed out his credentials (which he himself was too modest to do). He finally gave up on AK after a protracted and silly discussion about the old "too little power destroys tweeters" myth.

One other interesting about Ken Kantor: He's a pretty serious photographer/image manipulator. He's been frequently active on Flikr for anyone who might be interested.

kenkantor

Explore kenkantor’s 12,481 photos on Flickr!

www.flickr.com

 

[Bob from Florida]

I would love to read a respectful response to Danny's statements and allegations from ASR. I'm not interested in a pissin' match from forum members.

The thread title reminded me of "Mars Attacks". Watch the video clip for the answer!