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Can you hear a difference between dac+amp path with 92dB vs. 78dB SINAD? (test)
- Thread starter pma
- Start date
- Thread Starter
- #22
Quite simply, THD vs. frequency was measured in REW by frequency sweep, not by a stepped sine, because of stepped sine measurement is time consuming. Frequency sweep measurement is much more affected by noise floor, as you can read from REW manual.
The high noise in Chain2 is the reason of lower sweep resolution compared to single frequency spectrum analysis.
Re your later post, Deltawave setting?
Below from Audacity, so it is not the difference between Audition and Audacity
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- Thread Starter
- #23
DSJR
Major Contributor
Amateur subjective result from my shot ears via cheap in-ears which mimic the 'aids quite well - I felt/imagined that one sample seemed to have added reverb and the other had the drummer playing in a room.. No way could I pass an ABX test with it, but I switched back and forth a good few times and still came to the same conclusion. Superficially though, they're absolutely identical so may well be over-active imagination going on here 
Maybe a sales pitch, but the UK importer of Melco digital products insists that subjectively, it's the 'back of the room' in suitable recording that can be heard in these things.
I think I need to lay back down in a dark room somewhere, sorry fellas - as you were, as you were...
Maybe a sales pitch, but the UK importer of Melco digital products insists that subjectively, it's the 'back of the room' in suitable recording that can be heard in these things.
I think I need to lay back down in a dark room somewhere, sorry fellas - as you were, as you were...
- Thread Starter
- #27
I have uploaded the REW sweep measurements (Frequency response, THD(freq), impulse response etc) if someone wanted to play with, REW *.mdat files
solderdude
Grand Contributor
I appreciate the effort, and creating awareness and tests but I did not participate as I already know the differences are impossible to hear (despite being measurable) unless it is done 'sighted'.
What difference is required to hear it?
solderdude
Grand Contributor
Bigger than what these measurements show.
Also it may even be listening material, transducer and listening level dependent in some cases.
One cannot say what numbers for what type of measurements are needed to reach audible thresholds... too many variables for that including recordings and listeners.
Also it may even be listening material, transducer and listening level dependent in some cases.
One cannot say what numbers for what type of measurements are needed to reach audible thresholds... too many variables for that including recordings and listeners.
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- Thread Starter
- #31
This strongly depends on differences in transfer functions. There does not exist a simple answer to this complex question. Even if you are quite experienced, you will have hard times to guess possible audible differences from usual sets of measurements, like those posted here at ASR. Measurements are necessary to make, but interpretation and correlation with audibility is difficult to tell even for an experienced professional and impossible to tell for a usual reader.
In most cases, tape recorder S/N of 50dB and distortion of several % is inaudible.
danadam
Major Contributor
- Joined
- Jan 20, 2017
- Messages
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AFAICT the only difference was non-linear drift correction, but setting it to true hasn't changed anything. This:
Code:
DeltaWave v2.0.10, 2023-11-25T10:49:56.8690083+01:00
Reference: dacamp_orig.flac[L] 6660000 samples 96000Hz 24bits, stereo, MD5=f6d9e156164b3f8c0430695bedecc609
Comparison: dacamp_test2.flac[L] 6660000 samples 96000Hz 24bits, stereo, MD5=3629d861473e65d2dfeacb472f770840
Settings:
Gain:True, Remove DC:True
Non-linear Gain EQ:False Non-linear Phase EQ: False
EQ FFT Size:65536, EQ Frequency Cut: 0Hz - 0Hz, EQ Threshold: -500dB
Correct Non-linearity: False
Correct Drift:True, Precision:30, Subsample Align:True
Non-Linear drift Correction:True
Upsample:False, Window:Kaiser
Spectrum Window:Kaiser, Spectrum Size:32768
Spectrogram Window:Hann, Spectrogram Size:4096, Spectrogram Steps:2048
Filter Type:FIR, window:Kaiser, taps:262144, minimum phase=False
Dither:False bits=0
Trim Silence:True
Enable Simple Waveform Measurement: False
Discarding Reference: Start=0s, End=0s
Discarding Comparison: Start=0s, End=0s
Initial peak values Reference: -0.838dB Comparison: -0.773dB
Initial RMS values Reference: -15.423dB Comparison: -15.422dB
Null Depth=17.649dB
Trimming 192000 samples at start and 50 samples at the end that are below -90.31dB level
X-Correlation offset: 63 samples
Trimming 0 samples at start and 0 samples at the end that are below -90.31dB level
Drift computation quality, #1: Excellent (0.1μs)
Trimmed 19286 samples ( 200.895833ms) front, 38505 samples ( 401.09375ms end)
Final peak values Reference: -0.838dB Comparison: -0.764dB
Final RMS values Reference: -15.262dB Comparison: -15.256dB
Gain= -0.0068dB (0.9992x) DC=0 Phase offset=0.5557ms (53.347 samples)
Difference (rms) = -32.37dB [-32.45dBA]
Correlated Null Depth=43.94dB [37.09dBA]
Clock drift: 11.48 ppm
Files are NOT a bit-perfect match (match=0.09%) at 16 bits
Files are NOT a bit-perfect match (match=0%) at 24 bits
Files match @ 49.9984% when reduced to 6.23 bits
---- Phase difference (full bandwidth): 124.730519454468°
0-10kHz: 44.16°
0-20kHz: 87.05°
0-24kHz: 99.28°
Timing error (rms jitter): 889.5ns
PK Metric (step=400ms, overlap=50%):
RMS=-57.6dBFS
Median=-60.9
Max=-43.4
99%: -49.38
75%: -56.71
50%: -60.94
25%: -65.56
1%: -72.66
gn=1.00078010491943, dc=1.23446118539299E-06, dr=1.14844108469869E-05, of=53.3472015517
DONE!
Signature: ab38388952062b9b98aa6790d0559457
RMS of the difference of spectra: -76.2953684318295dB
DF Metric (step=400ms, overlap=0%):
Median=-23.5dB
Max=-13.9dB Min=-34.3dB
1% > -33.39dB
10% > -31.36dB
25% > -28.76dB
50% > -23.47dB
75% > -18.24dB
90% > -15.99dB
99% > -13.75dB
Linearity 2.1bits @ 0.5dB error
---- Phase difference (full bandwidth): 116.84289334647°
0-10kHz: 44.09°
0-20kHz: 86.72°
0-24kHz: 100.83°
Linearity 2.1bits @ 0.5dB errorChain 1 for completeness:
Code:
DeltaWave v2.0.10, 2023-11-25T11:08:58.3274330+01:00
Reference: dacamp_orig.flac[L] 6660000 samples 96000Hz 24bits, stereo, MD5=f6d9e156164b3f8c0430695bedecc609
Comparison: dacamp_test1.flac[L] 6660000 samples 96000Hz 24bits, stereo, MD5=94d6f4ea282335b5e87116639a10f1f1
Settings:
Gain:True, Remove DC:True
Non-linear Gain EQ:False Non-linear Phase EQ: False
EQ FFT Size:65536, EQ Frequency Cut: 0Hz - 0Hz, EQ Threshold: -500dB
Correct Non-linearity: False
Correct Drift:True, Precision:30, Subsample Align:True
Non-Linear drift Correction:True
Upsample:False, Window:Kaiser
Spectrum Window:Kaiser, Spectrum Size:32768
Spectrogram Window:Hann, Spectrogram Size:4096, Spectrogram Steps:2048
Filter Type:FIR, window:Kaiser, taps:262144, minimum phase=False
Dither:False bits=0
Trim Silence:True
Enable Simple Waveform Measurement: False
Discarding Reference: Start=0s, End=0s
Discarding Comparison: Start=0s, End=0s
Initial peak values Reference: -0.838dB Comparison: -0.755dB
Initial RMS values Reference: -15.423dB Comparison: -15.374dB
Null Depth=27.229dB
Trimming 192000 samples at start and 17 samples at the end that are below -90.31dB level
X-Correlation offset: 23 samples
Trimming 0 samples at start and 0 samples at the end that are below -90.31dB level
Drift computation quality, #1: Excellent (0.23μs)
Trimmed 13992 samples ( 145.75ms) front, 72235 samples ( 752.447917ms end)
Final peak values Reference: -0.838dB Comparison: -0.818dB
Final RMS values Reference: -15.278dB Comparison: -15.277dB
Gain= 0.0526dB (1.0061x) DC=0 Phase offset=0.260427ms (25.001 samples)
Difference (rms) = -38.34dB [-38.49dBA]
Correlated Null Depth=51.53dB [43.22dBA]
Clock drift: -1.35 ppm
Files are NOT a bit-perfect match (match=0.18%) at 16 bits
Files are NOT a bit-perfect match (match=0%) at 24 bits
Files match @ 49.9963% when reduced to 7.21 bits
---- Phase difference (full bandwidth): 79.8830961072748°
0-10kHz: 21.75°
0-20kHz: 42.76°
0-24kHz: 50.00°
Timing error (rms jitter): 492.7ns
PK Metric (step=400ms, overlap=50%):
RMS=-63.4dBFS
Median=-66.9
Max=-52.2
99%: -54.1
75%: -63.37
50%: -66.94
25%: -72.27
1%: -80.53
gn=0.993964760802358, dc=1.11260273831962E-06, dr=-1.34568928222651E-06, of=25.0010066197
DONE!
Signature: fc755558590885b317bfeb28d12f9226
RMS of the difference of spectra: -82.3416069416558dB
DF Metric (step=400ms, overlap=0%):
Median=-29.1dB
Max=-19.3dB Min=-39.5dB
1% > -38.61dB
10% > -36.99dB
25% > -34.43dB
50% > -29.12dB
75% > -24.26dB
90% > -21.84dB
99% > -18.88dB
Linearity 13.7bits @ 0.5dB errorFor me chain 1 looks similar but chain 2 does not:
- Thread Starter
- #34
There must be some difference in settings, I am posting the complete one
Anyway, this is a nit-picking, eyes and plots are not so important, ears and ABX results are.
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- Thread Starter
- #35
Nice, are you able to repeat that to get more relevant statistical result, like 16 trials, or 2 x 8 trials at least?
Balle Clorin
Major Contributor
- Joined
- Dec 26, 2017
- Messages
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Jesz This is easy. Put your ear into the tweater and turn up the volume and you can hear the difference .
My preamp han -112 db Noise level and Power amp -110. I can adjust the power amp gain by 0 -3 -6 and -12. At 0 I can hear a very faint hiss at -12 I cannot determine if the system is on or off…. That is the difference
So yes -92 or-78 is audible
When I play vinyl the noise floor is -50db , but it does not bother me at all..,
My preamp han -112 db Noise level and Power amp -110. I can adjust the power amp gain by 0 -3 -6 and -12. At 0 I can hear a very faint hiss at -12 I cannot determine if the system is on or off…. That is the difference
So yes -92 or-78 is audible
When I play vinyl the noise floor is -50db , but it does not bother me at all..,
- Thread Starter
- #40
Which files did you compare? Put the names, please, and part of the samples (time interval) where you can hear the hiss.