Can plants act as sound diffusers ?

[sarumbear]

Agree. I'm reflecting on @Dal1as observation that "scatterer" isn't used as a product/category name, not implying it has no distinct technical meaning. The opposite in fact.

I thought you were from UK, but maybe got that wrong: is English a second language? Not intended as a criticism at all, you just use semantic logic more like a German or a Hollander perhaps?

I’m British. I use the words as they mean in the dictionary as I believe that’s the only way to communicate online correctly. Chat online is different to chat face-to-face. Besides, science and logic goes hand in hand…

 

[deprogrammed]

How about instead of plants you try placing well trained animals at strategic points around the room? In a domestic setting these might range in size and density from a Shi Tzu through a large domestic cat to a Labrador Retriever. Maybe even an especially inert teenage human. For a semi enclosed outdoor sound system one might consider using carefully placed and muzzled cattle or llamas.

I used to make my little brother adjust the TV antenna. I should ask him to "stand over there"'.

 

[Axo1989]

I’m British. I use the words as they mean in the dictionary as I believe that’s the only way to communicate online correctly. Chat online is different to chat face-to-face. Besides, science and logic goes hand in hand…

Got it. I'm probably just picking up irregular syntax then (for example I'd expect a native speaker to say 'I use the words as they appear in the dictionary' or 'as they are defined in the dictionary'). Just curious, it's not important.

I don't take issue with using technical definitions at all here, in fact I think it is helpful. Although in online forums I also expect to come across and try to accomodate the vernacular.

 

[DonH56]

I speak Southern English which ain't real English most of the time... I fall back on saying that, as an engineer, English is at best a second language anyway. Give me a schematic...

But, back on topic, technically "diffusion" and "scattering" are defined very differently (if perhaps subtly at first glance) for audio or radar systems (the two fields I've used them the most). And you can find various articles online as well as the AES discussing the difference and why diffusion is preferred for audio.

 

[Andysu]

here this give whole new meaning to , high , high end feeling high end hi-fi

 

[julian_hughes]

I'm British. English, with some Scottish and Welsh antecedents. I use English in any damn way I please and it may differ according to circumstance, occasion, mood, company, intention, laziness, intended effect, level of intoxication, self confidence, state of mind, bodily aches and pains, time of day, weather, mental health, emotional status. And self regard.

 

[Axo1989]

I speak Southern English which ain't real English most of the time... I fall back on saying that, as an engineer, English is at best a second language anyway. Give me a schematic...

Haha, I thought of making that joke, better it comes from an engineer though.

But, back on topic, technically "diffusion" and "scattering" are defined very differently (if perhaps subtly at first glance) for audio or radar systems (the two fields I've used them the most). And you can find various articles online as well as the AES discussing the difference and why diffusion is preferred for audio.

Interesting. I reckon referring to the dictionary often gets complicated.

 

[Axo1989]

I'm British. English, with some Scottish and Welsh antecedents. I use English in any damn way I please and it may differ according to circumstance, occasion, mood, company, intention, laziness, intended effect, level of intoxication, self confidence, state of mind, bodily aches and pains, time of day, weather, mental health, emotional status. And self regard.

Most people do.

 

[julian_hughes]

Most people do.

Not if they don't speak English.

 

[julian_hughes]

I used to make my little brother adjust the TV antenna. I should ask him to "stand over there"'.

Don't ask. Simply insist.

 

[Axo1989]

Not if they don't speak English.

They use English as they please (&etc) too. They haven't been pleased to learn it yet.

 

[DonH56]

Interesting. I reckon referring to the dictionary often gets complicated.

I did not try to dig up my copy, but it's probably in here: https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/4114093

I also finally skimmed the link that @sarumbear posted earlier and it explains the difference -- reposting: https://www.lydogakustikk.no/difference-between-diffusion-and-scattering/

 

[Dal1as]

Whether diffusion use is common is neither here nor there. If you thing the difference between diffusion and scatter is semantics you are not educated and are wrong, I’m afraid.

You also do not know what is available on the market.

I know what products are available and also that outside a lab or a professional install (or knowhow) a diffuser may not offer perfect diffusion of the sound throughout the frequency range. If done incorrectly or with the wrong diffuser you can alter the first reflection too much and alter the sound.

It's not so much the object that defines it as a diffuser it's the result. You place the wrong diffuser in the 1st reflections of your left and right mains it's not going to properly diffuse. You place the correct diffuser on the back wall and it will.

The linearity of the room, placement, and how the diffuser scatters the sound all matters.

I remember when I visited a dolby lab with like 30 or so speakers, all of them with custom sbir panels, with the room having diffusers throughout and an engineer saying it still wasn't perfect.

So what's the cutoff in calling something a diffuser or random scatter thing? Does it imply even frequency dispursion from 20k to 300hz in all directions and with how much deviation? I just don't see a definate distinction when there is so much variance in types, use, and results.

Point is a properly engineered diffuser panel will scatter some frequencies differently depending on the room, setup, and use. Chasing perfect dispersion is also almost inobtanium for many even with professional help or products.

Sure an object used like in the ops case is not optimal and likely random in its effects but the plant will still diffuse at some frequencies and may help.

Is it then a diffuser or a scatter thing? This is why I stated it's semantics and also why most panels are called diffusers or absorbers and that diffusers scatter sound.

Also scattering of the sound can affect the rt60 in a room depending on size of the room, treatment, and other variables. It's not absolute.

Here is a good basic read on diffusion for others.

How Diffusion (audio) Works - GIK Acoustics

(Full Article) Diffusion in audio is often a misunderstood concept. We set to demystify common myths and explain the reason to buy a good diffusor, as it not only changes the reflections to propagate in different directions, but does so EVENLY in all directions. Just splitting a wave to go into...

www.gikacoustics.com

 

[Trackball02]

I have a 77" OLED TV mounted between my floor standing speakers. The speakers are separated by 8 ft and are 3 feet from the rear wall where the TV is mounted.
I'm looking to diffuse the sound off the TV surface, not absorb.
Anyone have suggestions on the material type, such as a movable curtain that I can close over the TV when not in use?

 

[Suffolkhifinut]

I'm British. English, with some Scottish and Welsh antecedents. I use English in any damn way I please and it may differ according to circumstance, occasion, mood, company, intention, laziness, intended effect, level of intoxication, self confidence, state of mind, bodily aches and pains, time of day, weather, mental health, emotional status. And self regard.

Does your mood improve around plants?

 

[fpitas]

I'm British. English, with some Scottish and Welsh antecedents. I use English in any damn way I please and it may differ according to circumstance, occasion, mood, company, intention, laziness, intended effect, level of intoxication, self confidence, state of mind, bodily aches and pains, time of day, weather, mental health, emotional status. And self regard.

Humpty Dumpty, move over!

 

[DonH56]

I have a 77" OLED TV mounted between my floor standing speakers. The speakers are separated by 8 ft and are 3 feet from the rear wall where the TV is mounted.
I'm looking to diffuse the sound off the TV surface, not absorb.
Anyone have suggestions on the material type, such as a movable curtain that I can close over the TV when not in use?

The neatest thing I have seen for that (and something I keep thinking I should do myself) was a woodworker who built frames for DIY OC-703 absorbers that could be folded over the front of the TV or folded out of the way to the sides. He used 1/4" plywood framing IIRC to save weight. The frames were in sections and hinged so they sort of accordion-folded back on themselves to the sides of the TV. I think he built some kind of stand out of 2"x4"s to support the panels, with feet that extended from the back to the front of his console for support.

Maybe you could just cover some panels with fabric and place them on the (a) shelf in front of the TV? Fancier would be buying heavy acoustic drapes from Mason or Kinetics or some acoustic treatment place to close in front of them.

I have not done that for mine; I have panels behind it and on the rear wall (or did, now disc storage), and determined the speakers as oriented to the side of the TV did not send enough energy at the TV to cause problems. Plus the energy they did send would reflect off to the sides and not at at me.

 

[Trackball02]

DonH56,
I'm attaching a photo showing the speakers and back wall, the dimensions between the speakers and distance from the rear wall as previously described.
Along the bottom of the TV are 3, 2ftx2ft, diffusers for a total of 6 ft length, and to each side are 3ft x 5ft large and heavy diffusion panels. I have not permanently mounted any of the wood diffuser panels on the wall.

Just trying to figure out what to do with the TV. As you did, should I bother given the distance of the speakers from the TV and that the speakers are toed in slightly without sending significant energy to the TV for reflection? I certainly do not notice any weird reflected sound directly coming from the TV, but how can be certain?

An alternative goal is to have a movable diffusion panel or diffusion curtain, without much absorption, to cover the TV, when not in use.
Once I'm happy with the TV cover, permanently attach the diffusion panels, and hide the cable, and work on aesthetics-decor, etc.

 

[Axo1989]

View attachment 263781
DonH56,
I'm attaching a photo showing the speakers and back wall, the dimensions between the speakers and distance from the rear wall as previously described.
Along the bottom of the TV are 3, 2ftx2ft, diffusers for a total of 6 ft length, and to each side are 3ft x 5ft large and heavy diffusion panels. I have not permanently mounted any of the wood diffuser panels on the wall.

Just trying to figure out what to do with the TV. As you did, should I bother given the distance of the speakers from the TV and that the speakers are toed in slightly without sending significant energy to the TV for reflection? I certainly do not notice any weird reflected sound directly coming from the TV, but how can be certain?

An alternative goal is to have a movable diffusion panel or diffusion curtain, without much absorption, to cover the TV, when not in use.
Once I'm happy with the TV cover, permanently attach the diffusion panels, and hide the cable, and work on aesthetics-decor, etc.

Ok, very nice speakers! The amp too, albeit the stuff of ASR apostasy.

 

[DonH56]

View attachment 263781
DonH56,
I'm attaching a photo showing the speakers and back wall, the dimensions between the speakers and distance from the rear wall as previously described.
Along the bottom of the TV are 3, 2ftx2ft, diffusers for a total of 6 ft length, and to each side are 3ft x 5ft large and heavy diffusion panels. I have not permanently mounted any of the wood diffuser panels on the wall.

Just trying to figure out what to do with the TV. As you did, should I bother given the distance of the speakers from the TV and that the speakers are toed in slightly without sending significant energy to the TV for reflection? I certainly do not notice any weird reflected sound directly coming from the TV, but how can be certain?

An alternative goal is to have a movable diffusion panel or diffusion curtain, without much absorption, to cover the TV, when not in use.
Once I'm happy with the TV cover, permanently attach the diffusion panels, and hide the cable, and work on aesthetics-decor, etc.

Personally I wouldn't worry about it. My setup is similar and I did not see reflections from the TV being a problem. You can use REW to see if there are any ugly peaks from the TV, but it may be hard to determine if that is really the cause. You could measure, then hang a heavy blanket folded over several times in front of the TV, and measure again to see if that changes anything. I'd guess the problem (if any) would be more from reflections from the back wall hitting the TV and being reflected back. Bearing in acoustics is not my day job, I would probably try to place diffusion on the back wall and maybe side walls and ceiling (first reflection points) since it is more for higher frequencies that the speakers are going to direct forward, not back to the wall behind.

At some point, saying this as one who struggles with it all the time, you have to just sit back and enjoy the system!

HTH - Don