Buy it, send it for testing, don't like the results, return it or sell it.
-
Welcome to ASR. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!
Buchardt Audio SUB10
- Thread starter VintageFlanker
- Start date
I have the same question. I just got a T2 and it’s not quite cutting it- not a big room but it’s semi-open on three sides, so output needs to be a bit better. It was $500 refurbished. The Brett Butterworth measurements for the T2 at 25Hz 96db less 6db for the the second meter yields 90db. I wrote to Buchardt to qualify their measurements for the Sub10 and the 96db they show at 25Hz is in fact at 2 meters, so if you take their measurements at face value it’s definitely better, plus you get all the control/eq features. (The T2 is very basic in this regard.) Still not sure if the Sub10 cost (1,400 euro) is something I want to spend.
I also found a Sound & Vision measurement for the T2, which shows a pathetic 75db at 25Hz, but this can't be right. They must be trying to show overall response at a typical listening level instead of measure max SPL. https://www.soundandvision.com/content/kef-t305-speaker-system-ht-labs-measures
Last edited:
WOW! CONFIDENCE!
2 whole years warranty on amp module.
For something that sits in a highly controlled environment.
Let's keep that throw away, filling the landfill, consumer economy going.
Not saying anyone else's warranty for something of this type is better.
I don't know if someone's is or not, as I am not in the market for one of these at this time (but I am keeping an eye on this market, as I like this idea).
But I'm not buying a piece of electronics that lives in a comfortable environment with that short of a warranty.
Soon I will be buying a (yes, it's a computer controlled device that fully controls both parts) new engine & transmission for my truck.
That is a very harsh environment for electronics/computers.
The NEW (from the original manufacturer) engine has a 3 year 36,000 mile warranty. This includes the computer which controls both the engine & the transmission.
The re-manufacturer of the transmission has a 2 year, 50,000 mile warranty.
A 2 year warranty on something that sits in a house (no matter the manufacturer), is IMHO ludicrous.
Yeah, I know many accept 2 years as confidence.
I do too: if it is in a harsh environment.
If inside your home is a harsh environment, it is vastly different than my home (which is simple but NOT harsh).
KenMasters
Active Member
Like mine, that is your opinion.
Does the EU ban people from having a better warranty (I have a home in Austria, but haven't personally been there since 1999), so don't know the warranty specifics.
If not, why just do the bare minimum.
I am sure that many of the parts in the items that I am buying (particularly the re-manufactured transmission) don't have a specific warranty.
Nor are they required by the government to have a warranty of that length (I have not looked into it as to whether they are even required to have a warranty at all).
They offer it because it is what the market demands at the price that they charge. Lesser warranties are available from other manufactures of transmissions with less durability.
This particular company does not build lesser transmissions that meet the bare minimum of standards. And are hence more expensive.
So, I guess that, as a manufacturer, it is the market that you compete in.
Since I choose to live elsewhere, I guess that I'll never know. As I am just another tourist when I visit where I was born. Except I own the place that I will stay.
Thanks for digging up the specifics.
If I was in the market for something like this, this would certainly be something that I would have dug deeper into.
& I will likely be in the market for something like this in the next 2 years.
Just not until 2027. A lot can change between now & then.
But, others are likely in the market now.
So thank you for providing this.
The Kef T2's quoted frequency response is 30-250hz. The Buchardt's is 20-300hz so it will definitely improve things at the low end. However, the Kef KC62 is 11-200hz. I've got the KC62 and my measurements in a small room get even lower than that quoted 11hz. You can pick one up from eBay for less than the Buchardt. Given that you're in the US I think an even better bet would be the SVS 3000 Micro. That goes down to 24hz but I measured it lower as I previously owned one. Otherwise if you have a big room then one of the bigger SVS subs. SVS is so cheap in the US compared to here in the UK.
The subwoofer comparison sheet shows the KEF KC62 has 85db SPL at 25Hz, whereas the KEF T2 has 90db at 25Hz, so the KC62 seems to be a step back? I see they are measured by different people, so maybe that has something to do with it?
I'm no expert on the science but my reading of this is that it allows you to play it louder? You might need that in a large room and the KC62 is not really for big rooms. But in small to medium rooms I'm not convinced most would need to go up to 90db. I hover somewhere around 65-70db at 2m.
If you don't need to worry about how loud it can go then the fact that the KC62 goes down to 11hz vs the T2's 30hz is very significant if you listen to bass heavy music or watch movies with it.
The point is that if you listen at 65-70dB, you simply cannot hear 20hz (and definitely not 11hz). So it is not significant, since it's inaudible.
I've never considered that. Although when I do REW measurements, using the DSP UMIK-1, I set the SPL to 75db and the mic picks up down to 10hz. So that would seem to contradict the above that states that you need to be above 85db to hear below 25hz?
What I can also confidently state is that my Robson Acoustics Burlington MKIII, with 6.5" Purifi drivers, and without the sub, get down to 30hz in my room. When I listen to the difference between just the speakers down to 30hz and using the sub, with the speakers at a crossover of 85hz, the sub bass goes considerably lower than the speakers. The "considerably" lower perceived bass response at my typical 65-70db listening levels cannot be accounted for by the 25-30hz frequency range. I know for sure I'm hearing and feeling more weight from the bass below 25hz.
Next time I hook up the laptop and use REW I'll test that at 65hz and only play some ranges below 25hz to confirm. Either way, I'm pretty confident that the KC62 will play, and be heard, lower than the T2.
Your microphone and your ears does not work the same way.
I would suggest what you are actually hearing is mostly a higher volume above 25hz. But yes, this is easy to test since you have REW.
Playback a 20hz sinewave at 65dB in REW and see if you can hear it. If your conclusion is "Yes", one out of three things are happening.
1) You are imagining it.
2) You can actually hear it, but in that case I suspect you will at least agree that it's so soft that you are unlikely to perceive it together with music material.
3) You can hear something, but it's not really the 20hz tone, it's your subwoofer and / or speaker that is not playing it cleanly, and are producing higher order distortion.
Another opportunity to share my sermon.
Bass down to some particular frequency depends on the playback level. It doesn't make sense to reproduce content that cannot be heard. The Fletcher/Munson curves describe the limits. But even weak content down below, once above the threshold, makes a difference - it is barely masked.
"0" is the threshold of hearing; what it also shows, that the intensity of subjective perception climbs quite rapidly with increasing objective level. The bass is not only hard to do, but also needs a bit of precision so that it isn't overdone
If the speaker isn't capable to reproduce what it is fed, it will produce tons of distortion instead, that affect the midrange objectively and subjectively directly and indirectly. That mess adds 'drama' to the hifi experience and is, ironically, expected by some population as a 'good bass'. Of course combined with some few discrete peaks in the amplitude spectrum. What side are you on?
In that case, what criteria would you use to determine the best choice of a slim/small footprint subwoofer used in a medium sized room (approx. 10 x15 x8 ft) primarily for 2.1 for listening at moderate volume levels? Is 25MHz response irrelevant- at what frequency and SPL level should one care? I picked the 25MHz level to compare subwoofers because it seems to be low enough for music to my ears, and I tend to somewhat overweight the output of sub bass relative to the rest of the spectrum because to me it really broadens the sound and makes it feel immersive and complete. BTW, thanks for chiming in, I'm aware of your slim subwoofers, they look fantastic.
@Heinrich- is the correct interpretation of the graph that you need output above 80db to really make sub bass below 30Hz hearable?
We are now in a thread about a competitor product, so I will try to tread lightly here. But if you are looking at relatively small subs, it's just a fact that they won't be able to play the lowest frequencies very loud. And in general you can hardly hear 20hz even when it's very loud, and nothing below.
The marketing division at Kef (as an example) apparently figured out it was cool to say that the KC62 could play down to 11hz. But it isn't a meaningful number, because no one can actually hear 11hz. And the KC62 for damn sure can't play 11hz loud enough for you to feel it. So it's a non-sensical piece of information.
When you say you picked the 25hz level to compare subwoofers, how are you comparing? Are you looking at CEA2010 numbers? Or how?
Yes, I'm looking at CEA2010 numbers from 2 meters- I start with the subwoofer comparison spreadsheet thread by sweetchaos on ASR, and try to track back to the original source where possible. Eg. your Ikognito 12 is listed at 95dB at 25Hz, I believe self reported by Sigberg. I am looking for a slim sub for a living area where it needs to be more discrete than the Rythmik E15HP2 I have in my main listening room.
Right. So then you get an impression of the capacity at different frequencies. The CEA2010 is somewhat difficult to get right (or at least easy to do wrong) for the one who is doing the measurements. Differences of 2-3dB can in some cases be seen between measurements from different reviewers of the same sub. So it's not perfect, but a good start. While it complicates thing a bit, I would suggest looking at other (and higher) frequencies as well, not just pick a single frequency like 25hz.
What the CEA2010 doesn't tell you is something you might want to worry about if you listen mostly at moderate levels, and that is the distortion level BEFORE the subwoofer hits the limit. CEA2010 only tells us the performance at the very limit of the subwoofers capacity. Unfortunately distortion data at moderate levels for different subwoofers isn't really available. But at typical problem with more budget level drivers is that distortion can be pretty bad even at moderate levels and even at higher frequencies (50-100hz), while still being able to hit decent max SPL numbers. Please note that I am not implying Kef and also not implying Buchardt here.
Put differently, a competent subwoofer might be beneficial even at moderate levels. Sound quality is a thing below 100hz as well.
That's a great point about lack of distortion data. What do you suggest for finding subwoofers with lower distortion?
I just want to mention that I built my own & did not have a size concern at all when I built them. So I am following this for my own informational purposes & have no ability to add to this discussion but you will see me give a "like" here & there.
EJ3
It's hard to give general advice on that. But price is of course always a factor. You can find 12" subwoofers that retail for less than the cost of the drivers we use. There will of course be a significant difference between a driver that retails at 400USD and a driver that retails at 40USD (or even less).
I'm sure both Kef and Buchardt (as examples) use competent drivers.
Similar threads
