Blind test: we have a volunteer!!!

[amirm]

This wouldn't be comparative because with an amp you're completely removing the reactive load, which is an inherent part of using speakers/headphones on an amp.

Not a problem. I can hook up a headphone to it and sample/record the output of the amp between them.

 

[amirm]

The world doesn't advance by pointing and laughing at people.

Sadly you couldn't resist staying on technical aspects of MQA when it came to me, who I was, what company I own, etc. You made all kind of conspiracies theories, insults, claims of illegal activity, etc. I have seen below belt comments from people about me but you made them all look like small potatoes. So I suggest you don't stand on high horse here. You have a huge hole to climb out of yourself.

 

[Blaspheme]

As to no one accepting such tests, I have done so on numerous occasions. ... By the same token, maybe our volunteer can pass the test as well as I did above then it adds a lot to our discussions.

Of course, you passed. I think the issue is more that the group on the losing side (so to speak) may find fault post-facto.

This is why the suggest to record the outputs and have the tester listen to those is appealing. He is welcome to say what is wrong ...

I think he wants a straightforward real-world test (so, listening to DAC on headphones). So do I. Your scenario its great as a testing protocol, but like mono listening, only engineers think that way. No offence of course.

Edit, otoh, if GO is happy, go for it.

 

[Blaspheme]

Sadly you couldn't resist staying on technical aspects of MQA when it came to me, who I was, what company I own, etc. You made all kind of conspiracies theories, insults, claims of illegal activity, etc. I have seen below belt comments from people about me but you made them all look like small potatoes. So I suggest you don't stand on high horse here. You have a huge hole to climb out of yourself.

Too much animus for this to work, perhaps.

Edit: I'm not going to wade through the (any?) MQA thread in toto to evaluate though.

 

[Wes]

Anybody set up a betting pool yet?

and related to the bets, do we know GO's age or have data from the last audiology test?

 

[PierreV]

Anybody set up a betting pool yet?

and related to the bets, do we know GO's age or have data from the last audiology test?

We could assume he is in his early twenties as he mentioned a uni exam. Be we can also just ask I guess

 

[GoldenOne]

Not a problem. I can hook up a headphone to it and sample/record the output of the amp between them.

That would be a good test.
It'd be interesting to see how much run to run variation there is with a true reactive load but so long as things remain similar hopefully it should be easy to get a decent run to run null.

do we know GO's age or have data from the last audiology test?

I'm 23. As to 'quality of hearing' etc, as I've said before I really don't think I have any sort of special hearing at all. I don't think that it's ME that can hear certain differences, I think that these differences are generally more audible.

But, having said that, I did do well in the klippel test (http://www.klippel.de/listeningtest/ Full Range Driver 70hz/800hz) and the musiclab tone-deafness test (https://www.themusiclab.org/quizzes/td) so maybe above-average. But having said that, there is no data on what equipment the others doing these tests were using or what their experience is so it's hard to know whether the average for just a randomly selected person vs an 'experienced' listener however you wish to qualify that will be different.

 

[MrPeabody]

Amir is more than capable of identifying everything that needs to be satisfied, procedurally, for this endeavor to be fair and valid. He does not require anyone else's assistance in this. The great majority of the comments in this already long thread have been the "piling on" variety, with people even proposing tests that are not remotely related to the device on which there was disagreement. Most all of this kind of thing is not appropriate.

 

[Dogen]

I don't have any of those switchers but once we decide we are going that way, I can buy one or more to test. I have one that I use that is really nice from functionality point of view but has some crosstalk.

Could one use two separate switches, one for each channel?

 

[Iving]

First, we are not trying to make "science." Poster has said that he hears all kinds of impairments in Schiit Magnius despite its superlative measurements. He has further dissuade people from buying said product saying Schiit made a mistake to produce it and that somehow they were forced to do it (for the sake of measurements). So we have a situation where I have give the same product raving review, and he has given the opposite. We need to figure out what is going on here. The easiest explanation -- one that is backed by science -- is that sighted test was performed incorrectly (bias, levels not matched, etc.). If so, a controlled test deals with this effectively. We would be following audio science here, not making one.

As to no one accepting such tests, I have done so on numerous occasions. When challenged that no one could pass a 320 kbps MP3 against the original, I immediately went and ran a double blind ABX test:

---

foo_abx 1.3.4 report
foobar2000 v1.3.2
2014/07/19 19:45:33

File A: C:\Users\Amir\Music\Arnys Filter Test\keys jangling 16 44.wav
File B: C:\Users\Amir\Music\Arnys Filter Test\keys jangling 16 44_01.mp3

19:45:33 : Test started.
19:46:21 : 01/01 50.0%
19:46:35 : 02/02 25.0%
19:46:49 : 02/03 50.0%
19:47:03 : 03/04 31.3%
19:47:13 : 04/05 18.8%
19:47:27 : 05/06 10.9%
19:47:38 : 06/07 6.3%
19:47:46 : 07/08 3.5%
19:48:01 : 08/09 2.0%
19:48:19 : 09/10 1.1%
19:48:31 : 10/11 0.6%
19:48:45 : 11/12 0.3%
19:48:58 : 12/13 0.2%
19:49:11 : 13/14 0.1%
19:49:28 : 14/15 0.0%
19:49:52 : 15/16 0.0%
19:49:56 : Test finished.

----------
Total: 15/16 (0.0%)

---

And the clip I used was the clip that was provided by the person challenging me! Discussion ended there. I have done this on numerous occasions and it is super helpful in cutting through the arguments.

By the same token, maybe our volunteer can pass the test as well as I did above then it adds a lot to our discussions.

Huh? We are dealing with a specific video and review that I post. The DAC test is proposed as an alternative but I have not accepted it. We need to verify what the video says in clear words for full 20 minutes. Not interested in testing other hypothesis with DACs and such.

This is why the suggest to record the outputs and have the tester listen to those is appealing. He is welcome to say what is wrong with that protocol but a protest like yours is not going to work. I have taken my double blind tests under the most hostile arguments that would make us look like church goers in contrast!

What is this? This is not a reply to my post. My post is about whether the project in hand will have any scientific merit. I say it can not have merit for reasons stated; i.e. mostly contamination with combative nonsense.

Your reply is essentially about you, and how great you are. It only augments my point. It is a subtraction from scientific merit.

On the whole, in public, scientists do not say, "She started it Mummy".

 

[oryan_dunn]

Well, that graphic puts to bed any notion of you posting here to garner views. 0.30% of your traffic views comes from here. Funny enough, twice as much comes from audiogon. And they even watch the video about 3 minutes longer than viewers here do.

That's 0.3% from "external" links. 60k, but as of now, the video has 248k views, so 0.06% directly from ASR.

 

[Blaspheme]

That's 0.3% from "external" links. 60k, but as of now, the video has 248k views, so 0.06% directly from ASR.

Is it audible?

 

[solderdude]

I disagree with this. We don't listen to music in mono, I'm not used to it, and it removes much of the elements of stuff like spatial presentation which in my opinion are often some of the more apparent changes. Playing mono wouldn't be representative of real-world use.

I would agree with that. The thing is it would be really easy to cheat by swapping L and R. I would suggest, when you do the test in front of a camera you show by muting the L or R channel that L and R are not swapped. It would be really easy to tell them apart.

Another option is to connect L and R inputs of an RME in parallel to the headphone so others can listen along.

But there ARE measurable differences in DACs, where the opinion differs is how audible they are. I'm not claiming there's any fairy dust going on. Everything is measurable and I've never suggested otherwise.

yes, it is all about audibilty levels. You have your age as an advantage and can easily hear what old farts (like me) cannot hear anymore

There are definitely aspects that make the tests a bit easier or harder. DACs a basic test is easier to set up given as you can just connect them to a preamp or switch and away you go. But as you mentioned the sync issue could be an issue. In my experience the majority of the time unless the DAC itself has some extensive internal DSP (denafrips dacs seem to have a notable delay) the sync is great, but it's just a case of how perfect is deemed acceptable. I could try connecting L channel of one dac and R channel of other dac to the ADC, play an impulse response test through both to get an idea of how closely synced they are if that might help.
The other issue being volume control.
But I'd agree on doing the amp test first.

One option is not not switch between amps instantaneously but to mute very shortly.

Balanced out on both amps whatever they end up being will be used to keep things equal.
I'd like to use susvara if @amirm is ok with it.

Good choice and is a very revealing headphone. Requires quite a lot of output voltage.
HE1000 would be another option. Susvara is slightly more 'relaxed' sounding.

I think the best way to control volume would likely be to use the same preamplifier. Volume match the amps themselves and then control volume there on out from the preamp.
At the moment I'm using the Holo Serene (measurements here: https://www.l7audiolab.com/f/measurements-of-holoaudio-serene-preamplifierpre-retail/ but can borrow my old goldpoint or a khozmo attenuator from a friend.

Would be fine.

This wouldn't be comparative because with an amp you're completely removing the reactive load, which is an inherent part of using speakers/headphones on an amp.

The Susvara is completely resistive (around 60ohm), no amp (that can provide enough voltage) will have any problems with it.
A challenging load would be the DCA AEON with its 13 ohm and low voltage sensitivity for certain amps.

It would be an interesting followup to see how many of these characteristics may/may not carry over when just recorded into an ADC.
But for now, let's keep things simple and equivalent to real-world use.
Headphones, on the amp. Nothing extra.

I would suggest a splitter to the headphone and 24/192 recording using ADI-2 if only to check for L-R changes and level differences as well as the possibility for others to check things.

In any case, for now I'll get an amp switcher sorted and then we can go from there and discuss further the conditions of the test (though as said I'm still happy to do May vs E30.

I would say that's fine. Do show/share the used filter settings. At your age you can tell slow and fast filters apart with music.

Success.

 

[Slayer]

Well I have to say I'm a little excited and intrigued to see this test.
I must also say, whether you agree or disagree with some of GoldenOne's claims. You have to respect him after everything that has been said to or about him and yet he still is willing to take on this challenge. Because no matter the outcome, he will still face scrutiny from some people.

Given his age and all that has been said, I think he has handled himself pretty well. While some of us older gents here, have not quite showed proper decorum. Good luck, patiently waiting for the results.

 

[amirm]

Too much animus for this to work, perhaps.

No, there isn't. I have been able to put that aside and still have an objective view of his work.

 

[amirm]

Given his age and all that has been said, I think he has handled himself pretty well.

Too early as we haven't gotten anywhere yet. If I were him, I would have had someone check my listening abilities before signing up for any test like this. It is still not too late. I highly suggest having a loved one do a few rounds of random switching on him and see if his conclusions are durable. If they are not, he can back off and change his review style in the future and we go about our business.

 

[amirm]

Expanding, we may be in for a lot of work to get this test done given the complexity of remote local, equipment availability, etc. The tester owes it to himself and us to not create all that work if there is no chance of him passing this test. This is why early on I proposed two phases. An informal quick check and then a more formal test.

 

[solderdude]

Have been a fan of proper blind tests for about 35 years now. Many times when I thought I could tell differences (amps, CDP and later DACs) a well performed test set me straight.
Really blind (not knowing what is used and someone helping) and level matched and enough attempts is crucial.
Checking gear/settings/levels using measurements is mandatory.
When there really are differences that exceed audible levels they also show up in blind tests, usually they are already quite measurable.
You do have to know WHAT to look for. Experiment and try to find that before starting the actual test.

 

[Wes]

That would be a good test.
It'd be interesting to see how much run to run variation there is with a true reactive load but so long as things remain similar hopefully it should be easy to get a decent run to run null.



I'm 23. As to 'quality of hearing' etc, as I've said before I really don't think I have any sort of special hearing at all. I don't think that it's ME that can hear certain differences, I think that these differences are generally more audible.

But, having said that, I did do well in the klippel test (http://www.klippel.de/listeningtest/ Full Range Driver 70hz/800hz) and the musiclab tone-deafness test (https://www.themusiclab.org/quizzes/td) so maybe above-average. But having said that, there is no data on what equipment the others doing these tests were using or what their experience is so it's hard to know whether the average for just a randomly selected person vs an 'experienced' listener however you wish to qualify that will be different.
View attachment 133448View attachment 133447

I meant loss of hearing with age, e.g. if you were 80 or something.

I look fwd to this listening test.

 

[max1236]

Susvara would be really cool considering its gained legendary status for needing amplification that costs about the same as the HP's themselves to bring out it's potential. Magnius should have enough power for them?