Blind test: we have a volunteer!!!

[Hotwetrat]

I can make the needed cables and send them to U.K. if needed. Don't think it will be needed.
When GO makes level matched blind tests he will already found out the 'magic sound differences' will have vanished and it would be pointless to show this publicly.
My assumption, hope I am wrong, it could advance science as there would be definitive proof there is something else than just 2 voltages changing over time or that the ear as an evaluation tool exceeds null testing and known measurements.

Why do I suspect you're not wrong.

 

[Hotwetrat]

Why do these darn pictures turn out so huge

 

[markus]

I can make the needed cables and send them to U.K. if needed. Don't think it will be needed.

A schematic would be enough for documentation purposes.

Did @GoldenOne agree to this test? I lost track of what was said when by whom

 

[raif71]

I was using this setup in https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...et-another-a-b-test-of-dacs.19769/post-690348 and https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...et-another-a-b-test-of-dacs.19769/post-699710 to test 2 amps. The setup here shown again ....

Actual, setup

 

[Geert]

The output resistance is low in both designs, the level matching is done under load, the load is resistive in the audible band.

All valid points, but I think you can imagine what subjectivists will make of this. So for the null test I would hook-up the headphones.

 

[LTig]

You run the two amplifiers in opposite polarity and listen to the difference signal into speakers (hots only connected*). If the output is silence, the amplifers sound the same. If there is a residual, you have an audible difference.**

*not full bridge (BTL amps)
**amplifiers using onboard D/As etc, this will rarely work, due to different latency issues.

Connecting the speaker (or headphone in this test) between the hots means that the more similar the amps behave the less loaded they are. So a very good Null means the amps are not loaded at all which IMV is not a valid test condition. You must load the amps with a normal load (hot to ground) as well.

 

[Mart68]

Why do these darn pictures turn out so huge

Warp Field Effect.

 

[JSmith]

Transparency is the best policy.

You mean like a well performing DAC or amp?

there to be no private understanding between you and GS, please officially call of your challenge.

Mate you seemed to have come in here with good intentions... bit direct and preachy now, IMO dial it back it bit, just a thought.

there is no evidence that amps which measure the same sound the same

There is plenty... the majority is part of internal testing by propriety companies and not public. This had all been done many, many times before, probably well before some members were even born. I've surprised myself a number of times with blind testing of amps... it's amazing how a number of members here have forgotten about the basics and suddenly think someone's ears are instrument grade. It's all in the mind... but carry on, seen it all before though.

I bet most people can't even tell between 320kbps MP3 and FLAC, let alone 192kbps, or even think the FLAC is the MP3... I suggest people start with this before comparing source level matched equal measuring amps.



JSmith

 

[markus]

You mean like a well performing DAC or amp?

Mate you seemed to have come in here with good intentions... bit direct and preachy now, IMO dial it back it bit, just a thought.

There is plenty... the majority is part of internal testing by propriety companies and not public. This had all been done many, many times before, probably well before some members were even born. I've surprised myself a number of times with blind testing of amps... it's amazing how a number of members here have forgotten about the basics and suddenly think someone's ears are instrument grade. It's all in the mind... but carry on, seen it all before though.

I bet most people can't even tell between 320kbps MP3 and FLAC, let alone 192kbps, or even think the FLAC is the MP3... I suggest people start with this before comparing source level matched equal measuring amps.



JSmith

And prove yourself wrong? That's against human nature. Wondrous that something like "the scientific method" even exists. Maybe at one point it was the only option to prove someone else wrong

 

[Hotwetrat]

You mean like a well performing DAC or amp?

Mate you seemed to have come in here with good intentions... bit direct and preachy now, IMO dial it back it bit, just a thought.

There is plenty... the majority is part of internal testing by propriety companies and not public. This had all been done many, many times before, probably well before some members were even born. I've surprised myself a number of times with blind testing of amps... it's amazing how a number of members here have forgotten about the basics and suddenly think someone's ears are instrument grade. It's all in the mind... but carry on, seen it all before though.

I bet most people can't even tell between 320kbps MP3 and FLAC, let alone 192kbps, or even think the FLAC is the MP3... I suggest people start with this before comparing source level matched equal measuring amps.



JSmith

Go on alternate big Jim, you tell em.

 

[JSmith]

Why do these darn pictures turn out so huge

Depends on the res of the image... or drop a thumbnail instead which people can click and enlarge.

big Jim

JSmith

 

[Spkrdctr]

Wow! 29 pages of everyone trying to make this a crazy, extremely technical, "match everything" including the Earths rotation an on and on. Guys, the bottom line is there will be no success in picking out which one is which, IT IS NOT THAT CLOSE. You can do a much easier test and the outcome will be failure of picking a difference. The test doesn't need to be super hard and involve engineers setting it up for a week. In ASR terms a slightly sloppy test will lead to failure. UNLESS, there are external "tells" that give away which unit is in the system at the time. No one has ever even come close. I can even predict the outcome with ease. No one will hear a difference. Too many tests with extreme and very extreme differences in wires, cable and amp have all been failures. It will not be any different this time either. I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but it is not worth wasting so much time on. But, if you want to, go for it! Just don't make it so technically difficult the test doesn't happen. Everyone on here acts like they fear someone will actually pick which is which. Have no fear, it would SHOCK you on how little you can hear the difference between equipment. I mean you would all be dumbfounded. NOT EVEN CLOSE.

 

[Walderstorn]

I understand the issue you have with the difference only test, but now we're at a stalemate I'm afraid. I don't know of a test that would allow GO to proof he can hear the very specific sound attributes he mentioned. There's no way to for example switch fatigueing or graininess on and of.

So personally I believe there's still value in doing a difference only test between devices that measure transparent. I understand it might not be worth 1.000$, but I don't think that's what GO is after. This test might seem to basic, but the claim that we'll measuring amps and DAC's sound identical is still good for at least 1 fight a day on this forum, resulting in endless discussions without any progress of insight.

That stalemate is what some, while skating through arguments like beginner ice skaters when they first try to stand up for the first time, tried to achieve, since they will semantically try anything that would even remotely put their in a side of an argument that may not go in their favor.

We can discuss semantics all day but a man is only as good as his morals. Would be nice to have that test done though.

Trust me when I say it's definitely not entertaining for a those that have spent years helping build ASR , formative members and retired mods alike . This thread and the MQA thread are a sad state of affairs.

This is just a circus, both sides thinking they hold the hill. Our vlogger friend can afford such game we need to be better imo .

Yes it is a bit of a circus but the bigger clowns are the ones that take sides because of idolization more than any other reasons or, in the other spectrum of things, the ones that just want to contradict for the sake of it and that's something that always end up plaguing forums. We don't need to do better, not as a whole at least but as individuals, for the good of the group, because its impossible to detract all that causes a negative impact, it only takes 1 person to do that and the rest follows suit. So we should be responsible for ourselves and why we say this or that and/or agree with this and that. Do we actually agree with something? Why? Would we agree if it was someone else saying it? Sometimes seems like some people just tend to follow blindly others and that's always a problem, in a virtual world or in the real one...History showed us so.

 

[Music1969]

So when is this going down lol

Is it on the undercard for Mayweather vs Paul !?

 

[Jinjuku]

This is virtually impossible when the headphone is reseated. Anybody that has done headphone measurements knows that measured results differ by reseating the headphone.

And this couldn't be causal of the original blog and the differences therein?

 

[BrEpBrEpBrEpBrEp]

And this couldn't be causal of the original blog and the differences therein?

Doubt it. When comparing two amps, why would he reseat his headphones? Also, that would make the differences somewhat random (each reseating different), rather than consistent.

 

[Blaspheme]

I understand the issue you have with the difference only test, but now we're at a stalemate I'm afraid. I don't know of a test that would allow GO to proof he can hear the very specific sound attributes he mentioned. There's no way to for example switch fatigueing or graininess on and of.

So personally I believe there's still value in doing a difference only test between devices that measure transparent. I understand it might not be worth 1.000$, but I don't think that's what GO is after. This test might seem to basic, but the claim that we'll measuring amps and DAC's sound identical is still good for at least 1 fight a day on this forum, resulting in endless discussions without any progress of insight.

Amir has indicated that a methodology using subjective evaluation (assessing sonic categories) in a blinded experimental comparison is acceptable. Degree of consistency of said evaluation would be sufficient to demonstrate that those characteristics are being heard by GO (or otherwise). Statistical analysis of results is required—particularly if different musical selections are used for different subjective criteria—but those methods are well documented and can be applied here.

 

[richard12511]

The entire premise that amplifiers level matched and run under clipping are indistinguishable from one another is a narrative prosecuted by people who don't own a lot of amplifers or the ability to switch between them and most likely have never instantly compared several amplifiers, run at varying levels, into various loudspeakers.



Yes you can. You run the two amplifiers in opposite polarity and listen to the difference signal into speakers (hots only connected*). If the output is silence, the amplifers sound the same. If there is a residual, you have an audible difference.**

*not full bridge (BTL amps)
**amplifiers using onboard D/As etc, this will rarely work, due to different latency issues.

You obviously have great experience with this, which makes me very curious. Could you give examples of semi-modern reasonably priced amps that you think sound different? I'm super curious of the idea of amps sounding different, as it goes against what I've learned and experienced so far. I'd be willing to buy those amps and blind test them with myself and a few friends using my ABX comparator. I think it would be super fun, and I'd probably throw my best amp(NC1200) into the mix. Amps with decent resale value would be preferred

I currently own only 7 amps, with 3 of those being AVRs, and 1 of those being the powernode ni. Only 3 of those would I consider real high quality amps(Emotiva XPA3, Nord NC500 3 channel, and Nord NC1200 stereo amp). I do have access to instant switching, and I can say that I can't really hear any difference between any of them that I believe would hold up under blind conditions, maybe I could though.

A few years ago I did a blind test with myself and a few friends(didn't have the ABX back then) between the Emotiva, the cheaper Nord, and one of the AVRs($400 Yamaha). The results showed that none of us could hear any difference between any of them, even the AVR . It kinda changed my outlook on hifi, as up to that point, I had kinda assumed that the amp was as critical of a piece as the loudspeaker, and it's why I bought those external amps in the first place . It kinda bummed me out at the time, as it kinda took some of the fun away from the hobby for me(I enjoy the gear collecting aspect). It also limited my forum reading options, as I used to enjoy reading all the amplifier impression threads in the various forums. Also possible that my ears just aren't good enough, I suppose.

 

[Pdxwayne]

You obviously have great experience with this, which makes me very curious. Could you give examples of semi-modern reasonably priced amps that you think sound different? I'm super curious of the idea of amps sounding different, as it goes against what I've learned and experienced so far. I'd be willing to buy those amps and blind test them with myself and a few friends using my ABX comparator. I think it would be super fun, and I'd probably throw my best amp(NC1200) into the mix. Amps with decent resale value would be preferred

I currently own only 7 amps, with 3 of those being AVRs, and 1 of those being the powernode ni. Only 3 of those would I consider real high quality amps(Emotiva XPA3, Nord NC500 3 channel, and Nord NC1200 stereo amp). I do have access to instant switching, and I can say that I can't really hear any difference between any of them that I believe would hold up under blind conditions, maybe I could though.

A few years ago I did a blind test with myself and a few friends(didn't have the ABX back then) between the Emotiva, the cheaper Nord, and one of the AVRs($400 Yamaha). The results showed that none of us could hear any difference between any of them, even the AVR . It kinda changed my outlook on hifi, as up to that point, I had kinda assumed that the amp was as critical of a piece as the loudspeaker, and it's why I bought those external amps in the first place . It kinda bummed me out at the time, as it kinda took some of the fun away from the hobby for me(I enjoy the gear collecting aspect). It also limited my forum reading options, as I used to enjoy reading all the amplifier impression threads in the various forums. Also possible that my ears just aren't good enough, I suppose.

I have 10 devices with amps.

I have two 5.1 setups and 4 stereo setups.

Do I hear differences between amps? Yes.

Do I want to do double blinds tests, sure, I would love to join one you host in the future...Do I want to do it in my home, nah....Having done two double blinds tests for DAC already took too much out of my family members. : P

Regarding hearing....Can you pass at least 0.5db sound different online test at https://www.audiocheck.net/blindtests_level.php?lvl=0.5?

My test results are here
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ds/how-good-is-your-hearing.20417/post-692530

 

[Beershaun]

I'll bring my speaker to the blind test and see if thy can tell the difference.
Level matched and everthing.