Better two channel sound questions

[Donald DAC]

Hi!

First post here, seems like a great place to be . I'm trying to straighten my thoughts out and post this wider post in this area.

I want to get better 2 channel music sound and summarize my situation below. The Yamaha receiver can't handle the Kanta speakers in a good way (too weak amps probably) and also the preamp stage as well as the signal out through pre out using the Yamahas Spotify Connect client feels "weak" thus I think a dedicated streamer is also worth it.

Today I have:

• Yamaha RX-A2080 HT receiver running 5.1 system
• 2 x Focal Kanta 2, front speakers
• 1 x Focal Aria CC900, center
• 2 x Focal SR900, surround
• 2 x XTZ 10.17 Edge subwoofers
• (LG OLED TV, 65 inch)

Listening to Pop, Rock, Electronic music, ... These quite sensitive speakers (beryllium tweeters) need better equipment conditions as the situation easily get tiring after a while.

I still want to use the Yamaha AMP for center and surround for movies and TV. I like the efficiency of Class D and that is what I aim to invest in, although I am afraid it might feel "lifeless" and bright. What system setups can you recommend for the Focal Kanta 2 speakers (that are a bit brighter in sound and have a tricky load) in regards to:

• Preamp/Dac Budget <1200€, good if lower
  • Must have volume control and remote.
  • Probably a touch of warmth. Not too bright.
  • Subwoofer out is a bonus but I can run the Kantas as stand alone too.
  • Would like to have HT bypass (if there are suitable models) mode so I can connect to pre out from Yamaha for 5.1 DTS/DD sound for movies and TV. (China DAC, miniDSP SHD, other)
• Amplifier Budget < 2000€, preferably less.
  • Looking into the class D amplifiers.
  • What models would you recommend?
  • 2 mono or one stereo, audio quality diffences?
  • What about nCore or Purify?
• Streamer Budget < 500€
  • Listening mainly on Spotify Connect today, but will probably move to more hires providers like Tidal or Qobuz.
  • (thinking about iFi Zen stream)

On my watch list now:
Preamp/DAC:

• SMSL D400EX, more expensive
• SMSL D300, not so expensive
• Some kind of miniDSP, with Dirac.

Class D amps:

• Nuprime STA 9X: https://www.homecinesolutions.fr/p/23060-nuprime-dac-9x-noir
• Purify based: Audophonic Purify AMP

Again, I'm aware of the wider scope here with many questions. Any pointers or direct model combination recommendations are welcome.
Thanks a lot!

 

[Snoopy]

AUDIOPHONICS DAW-S250NC Amplificateur Intégré Class D NCore DAC ES9038Q2M WiFi Bluetooth 5.0 2x250W 4 Ohm 32bit 768kHz DSD256 - Audiophonics

Polyvalent et performant, nous vous proposons avec le DAW-S250NC un réel amplificateur intégré et connecté auquel il suffira d'ajouter des enceintes pour profiter de votre musique de la meilleure manière possible...

www.audiophonics.fr

How about this.. amp class d , DAC, streamer

 

[Willem]

First thing to do is to diagnose the current situation, because I don't think you have necessarily identified the real problem. I would be surprised if the receiver is the problem, unless you have made mistakes with the set up. So first do some measurements of in-room response.

 

[voodooless]

“Weak” amps and DAC, beryllium needing “better”, class D sounding bright and lifeless? Sounds like you drank too much audiophile cool aid.

Looking at the speaker measurements, they seem to have a bit extra energy between 5 and 8 kHz off axis. That might be your actual issue.

In 2 channel mode there should be plenty of clean power from the Yamaha. Do you use the room correction it has? Did you experiment with EQ. Have you measured the in-room response?

Since the speakers and room are the primary items that decide your sound, start there. The third would be processing, of which the Yamaha has a fair bit.

Btw, did you set the impedance setting in the Yamaha to 8 Ohm. This is just a regulatory setting and will give you more power for your 4 Ohm speakers as well.

 

[Plcamp]

I did have a problem driving a pair of speakers with 3.4 ohm bass impedance with a Yamaha RXA3030…easily solved with a power amp off pre outs. I. Used an old Hafler for that.

I would be surprised if you need anything unless your speakers drop to quite low impedance. Have you reason to suspect this?

 

[tuga]

“Weak” amps and DAC, beryllium needing “better”, class D sounding bright and lifeless? Sounds like you drank too much audiophile cool aid.

Looking at the speaker measurements, they seem to have a bit extra energy between 5 and 8 kHz off axis. That might be your actual issue.

It's easy to "insult" audiophiles but, to be fair, there are real audible issues in many cases, the problem is that most people have no idea of what could be causing those issues. Measurements help us to trace potential causes but not always.

I haven't listened to more recent Focal (tweeters) but those '90s and '00s speakers I listened to sounded nasty.

 

[tuga]

First thing to do is to diagnose the current situation, because I don't think you have necessarily identified the real problem. I would be surprised if the receiver is the problem, unless you have made mistakes with the set up. So first do some measurements of in-room response.

He seems to have identified a problem, but not the cause:

the situation easily get tiring after a while.

 

[Overseas]

Total budget 3700 for 3 components, that is good money.
I am a plug n play guy, still a fan for class D BUT make sure you read about all problems with class D (clicks and pops and noise etc) IF you go that route.
I know I am going to take a lot of heat, but at this moment an Yamaha AS2200 will rock your system at least as any class D. Or, if you want something more rock - solid, try some Rotels RA models, including preamp + power.

 

[Donald DAC]

He seems to have identified a problem, but not the cause:

Hi!

Thanks for all comments and tips!Here is an update form my side:
During the week i ordered the Audiophonics LPA-S400ET Amp from France. Waiting for it to arrive here in Sweden, I hope during next week.

Summarizing above comments and tips:

• The Yamaha RX-A2080 that I have has "quite a lot" of power but has problems with lower speaker loads from what I understood.
  • In real life with the Yamaha the audio is quite clear and dynamic but I mostly lack level and feeling in the midrange. More of a U shaped curve.
  • I borrowed a friends XTZ A2-300 amp and connected to the pre out on the Yamaha. Quite big difference. The sound is a bit more powerful, controlled and even in the bass, and especially the midrange got a nice level lift so I could hear vocals more clearly. The treble seems more rolled off and rough though. And the sound with this amp is not very detailed (except for the bass region). So I hope the new LPA-S400 AMP will do the trick of giving more control, a nice more leveled curve and more details.
  • On the Yamaha I mostly run "Pure Direct" mode bypassing room corrections and shorten signal paths. For movies and TV I have Yamahas room correction enabled, which give ok, but not good results. i messed around with REW and UMIK-1 on a very basic level to see what my rooms does and corrected with Yamahas EQ, especially for the subs and in the lower frequencies < 100 Hz.
  • The Yamaha is set to 8 Ohms mode. From what I understood the 4 Ohms mode is just some shady trick to reach some kind of energy certification or such.
• I have a couple of wall absorbers behind the floor standers but have thought of some bass traps of sorts.
• The Kanta 2 as stated above has high efficiency but can be problematic to drive as seen here for example

So next step for me is to evaluate the LPA-S400 ET amp when it arrives, connected via pre put on the Yamaha and then see/hear what happens. It might be that the pre out signal is good enough, but I doubt it. With the Kantas there is so much more possibilities to explore is my feeling. So quite soon I might a good pre amp / DAC and possibly a streamer, etc.
And tomorrow there will be a Christmas tree in front of my right speaker in the living room, so critical listening might be hard to do short term

 

[Mart68]

Stereophile has reviewed the Kanta 2

Focal Kanta No.2 loudspeaker Measurements

Sidebar 4: Measurements

www.stereophile.com

''The impedance does stay above 8 ohms through the treble, and above 6 ohms in the low- and midbass regions. However, the Kanta No.2's impedance drops below 4 ohms between 80 and 180Hz, with a minimum magnitude of 2.97 ohms at 105Hz (fig.1). In addition, the electrical phase angle has an extremely high value between 70 and 90Hz, where the impedance magnitude is low. This speaker will work best with amplifiers comfortable with a 4 ohm load.''

That's your problem right there IMO - and in my practical experience with similar Focals. Yamaha don't even quote the power output of the A2080 into 4 ohms in the spec, I wonder why?

 

[voodooless]

Yamaha don't even quote the power output of the A2080 into 4 ohms in the spec, I wonder why?

Yes they do:

They even spec dynamic power at 2R.

Even the smaller 1080a gets a conservative 133W, realistically closer to 180W of power into 4R. Per ASR test..

 

[Mart68]

Yes they do:
View attachment 250605
They even spec dynamic power at 2R.

yes they do, ,my mistake.

 

[Overseas]

You have the wrong Yamaha.
I look forward for class D at class AB prices and at same convenience of usage (read about settings in class D that require that you unscrew the panels etc, no way Jose!).

 

[voodooless]

You have the wrong Yamaha.

What’s wrong with it?

I look forward for class D at class AB prices

Aren’t they?

and at same convenience of usage (read about settings in class D that require that you unscrew the panels etc, no way Jose!).

I bet you I can find AB amps that you need to open up to change settings. How many actual class D amps have/need this?

 

[Overseas]

As I said, I am eager to to try class D but what I read from users in terms of usage is far from plug n play.

Class AB mainstream, settings inside the box? What are you talking, is this a joke topic?

And yes, class D too expensive yet. For a complete integrated setup, not top of list looks like you pay Rotel Michi prices. No thanks.

 

[xeizo]

There is professional PA/Studio amps which are usually much better priced vs performance than expensive-fi stuff. Check thomann.de they may have some real powerful stuff at reasonable prices. For instance I see many HiFi lovers uses Crown amps.
That is, if more power is what you need.

 

[voodooless]

As I said, I am eager to to try class D but what I read from users in terms of usage is far from plug n play.

Nonsenses.

Class AB mainstream, settings inside the box? What are you talking, is this a joke topic?

What mainstream class D amps needs to be opened to change it’s settings? How many models actually have this?

And yes, class D too expensive yet. For a complete integrated setup, not top of list looks like you pay Rotel Michi prices. No thanks.

There is no need to pay this much…. See NAD for much more affordable integrated amps.