Better Amp better soundstage?

[Chrispy]

LOL Andrew has some strange thoughts to make money with.

 

[EWL5]

LOL Andrew has some strange thoughts to make money with.

There's only so much he can say or do to sell a commodity. They're all so similar that sometimes he'll have to reach into the "Make Sh*t Up" bag!

 

[ehabheikal]

Has soundstage ever been quantified or measured?

 

[kemmler3D]

Has soundstage ever been quantified or measured?

Not that I am aware of... I think you could do it, but it's essentially subjective, so not simple to quantify. And then relating that to specific parameters of speakers (let alone amps) would also be quite a project.

The fact that it's subjective is probably why the subjectivists / snake-oilers are talking about it so much. There's no measurement that directly corresponds to it, so you can't prove them wrong with a simple graph.

 

[Jimbob54]

I've merged a newer thread discussing the AR video . @CK. Please don't post the same content multiple times . Thanks.

 

[Brian Hall]

Speaker choice and toe-in degree makes a big difference. I have my Heresy IVs on rollable heavy duty plant stands. Made it easy to adjust the distance from the wall and toe-in amount until it sounded perfect to me. With my eyes closed I can point to where everything is in the soundstage and some things even sound obviously further left or right than the speakers (with the right music).

I ended up with the speakers angled in just a little to get just right.

Edited to add: I'm not fond of jazz, but one of the best albums to hear a good soundstage is Miles Davis - Kind of Blue. Both for speakers and with Sennheiser HD800S.

 

[Doodski]

Speaker choice and toe-in degree makes a big difference. I have my Heresy IVs on rollable heavy duty plant stands. Made it easy to adjust the distance from the wall and toe-in amount until it sounded perfect to me. With my eyes closed I can point to where everything is in the soundstage and some things even sound obviously further left or right than the speakers (with the right music).

I ended up with the speakers angled in just a little to get just right.

That sure beats hanging the speakers from the ceiling using macramé like I've seen done with large speakers... LoL.

 

[CK.]

His graphic is just showing what he perceived in his sighted, uncontrolled comparison. He's got nothing there to back up that claim.

Even his graphic only shows a small difference in the three receivers. Like after dismantling one set up, putting the new amp in, and listening again, he can really remember that the first one had a slightly (in comparison to the distance between the speakers) wider image.

I'm sure he thinks he does, but testing people shows they don't really recall what they heard even just a minute previously with any accuracy.

Even a small difference in volume could account for that and there's no indication he used anything but the spl markings on the volume controls to level match, which isn't remotely good enough.

Plus he talks a lot of nonsense about the 'tone' of the different amps so I think he is just another audiophile, with no real knowledge to pass on.

Thanks for the comment. From the video to me there is a big difference between the rectangles (not only a wider but also a taller soundstage). The spl mismatching could indeed be one explanation I would think. Some differences between sounds are more prominent I think, for example the presence of sibilance is something that I am sure I would remember even months later.

 

[CK.]

Not that I am aware of... I think you could do it, but it's essentially subjective, so not simple to quantify. And then relating that to specific parameters of speakers (let alone amps) would also be quite a project.

The fact that it's subjective is probably why the subjectivists / snake-oilers are talking about it so much. There's no measurement that directly corresponds to it, so you can't prove them wrong with a simple graph.

Yeah but maybe we are asking the wrong question? Maybe we should ask, what could actually be influencing their perception that could mistake it for a difference in soundstage? Could electronics influence the phase of an audio signal that could affect soundstage? Not an expert just wondering

 

[Koeitje]

Hi. First post. I'm asking here because I know I can trust the answers I get. I have a WiimAmp. I am getting very little in the way of soundstage. Would a better amplifier help?

Better speakers will help with that, probably speakers with wider dispersion.

Operative word.

But hey, he drew rectangles! RECTANGLES! How could you want more?

I've seen people draw triangles, but rectangles?! That is some advanced stuff right there.

Has soundstage ever been quantified or measured?

No, but the general consensus seems to be that wide dispersion speakers have wider soundstages (at the cost of pin point accuracy of instrument location). It kinda makes sense, if you think about reflections?

 

[SuicideSquid]

I know I'll get my head in the gallows with this response, but I'll say absolutely! Last week I tried the wiim amp, Marantz M1, YAMAHA R-N800A and Hegel H190 on the same set of speakers (REVIVAL AUDIO SPRINT 3) in the same setup/room. The latter three were somehow similar in overall sound, but the wiim amp sounded very different - and unfortunately not in a good way. It was obvious to everyone who listened. We couldn't make a scientific ABX comparison, but we could change amps without knowing which were which and somewhat levelmatch. 4/5 tries could easily tell the wiim amp from the others, and the 1/5 was because the speaker cables were put in with wrong polarity in the amp, that there could not be heard a difference from the listener.

It's maybe not fair to compare a cheap wiim amp with the other amps, but the difference was very noticeable. Soundstage (defined by me as sound width and X/Y/Z axis instrument placement) and bottom end was missing compared to the other amps. I know my answer will not be well taken on this forum, but I don't care. I'm very much a science guy, but the difference with the wiim amp compared to the others was so noticeable, that it could not be ignored.

Of course room acoustics will have a huge impact, and way more than any 1000.000$ system can ever fix. In my dedicated (rectangular) listening room I can place my speakers and the end walls and get crappy sound. If I place them on the "short" walls, I get much much better sound. You could get satisfactory sound with the wiim, but my experience with real world comparisons is, that there absolutely is a difference in sound between (some) amps.

Thanks

A quick level matching by ear is not sufficient for an amplifier A/B test. A 1-2dB difference in volume will be extremely hard to consciously identify, but will lead to most listeners consistently preferring the amp that is 1-2dB louder. To do a true comparison you need to get the difference down to around 0.25dB or less, which is impossible to do by ear. A 1-2dB level mismatch and the fact that the comparison wasn't blind almost certainly account for the differences you were hearing.

 

[Blumlein 88]

Yeah but maybe we are asking the wrong question? Maybe we should ask, what could actually be influencing their perception that could mistake it for a difference in soundstage? Could electronics influence the phase of an audio signal that could affect soundstage? Not an expert just wondering

The sighted aspect is an obvious answer.

 

[Mart68]

Thanks for the comment. From the video to me there is a big difference between the rectangles (not only a wider but also a taller soundstage). The spl mismatching could indeed be one explanation I would think. Some differences between sounds are more prominent I think, for example the presence of sibilance is something that I am sure I would remember even months later.

Yes, sibilence is an unpleasant distortion of the signal so of course you recall that. This soundstage thing isn't at all the same.

He hasn't tested anything here. He's just drawn some lines on a still image to represent his general impressions of differences and then attributes them to some mystical 'character' of the amplifier instead of one of the number of plausible explanations.

 

[Cbdb2]

Agree with what you wrote here.

What I was referring to was that spatial cues in recordings come more from mids and highs than bass.

If an amp lacks power you'll clip bass first, so even if your amp was running out of power it wouldn't tend to affect spatial cues right away.

When you clip your clipping all frequencies present at that time not just the bass and fast peaks have hi freqs.

 

[Fahzz]

Edited to add: I'm not fond of jazz, but one of the best albums to hear a good soundstage is Miles Davis - Kind of Blue. Both for speakers and with Sennheiser HD800S.

Small combo Jazz is good for imaging, just a few instruments and each is easily distinguishable and placeable. Plus there's a lot of great music in that form. Give it a try!

 

[kemmler3D]

When you clip your clipping all frequencies present at that time not just the bass and fast peaks have hi freqs.

Yes, but you clip the top of the waveform (whatever goes past clipping power) and often the peaks are bass, so effectively for a lot of music, distortion "hits" the bass first.

 

[kemmler3D]

Yeah but maybe we are asking the wrong question? Maybe we should ask, what could actually be influencing their perception that could mistake it for a difference in soundstage?

Well, there are several things that are believed to contribute to a perception of soundstage when it comes to equipment, but by far most of them pertain to speakers or the room.

Could electronics influence the phase of an audio signal that could affect soundstage? Not an expert just wondering

Different kinds of distortion could affect soundstage, but since we have no reason to think there is audible distortion coming from these amps, there's no reason to think they would affect soundstage one way or the other.

The much more likely explanation is sighted bias.

 

[Cbdb2]

If your amps 2 channels are the same, same flat freq response same zero phase shift no compression no clipping than its not affecting your sound stage. Its differences in left right signals that make left right sound stage, mono signals should all be dead center regardless of your room, your brain uses the first arrival to determine location, the reflections dont matter. In other words, unless your Amp is terrible, misused or defective it should not alter the sound stage.
The most important thing for speakers (something Nuemann says) is a good match in freq. response. Imagine if your left speaker is 2 dB louder in a part of the treble. A mono (panned dead center) guitar playing chords will be smeared across the front (different strings and harmonics in different places) , a guitar playing a solo could also move with the notes.

 

[Cbdb2]

Yes, but you clip the top of the waveform (whatever goes past clipping power) and often the peaks are bass, so effectively for a lot of music, distortion "hits" the bass first.

As I said the peaks are all the freqs. put together so your not just clipping the bass. Look at an FFT of an impulse. Without the hi freqs you would not have a peak.

 

[Oddball]

Get a decent amp and don’t worry about the soundstage. What decent amp is depends on many factors of one’s setup and expectations that have not been disclosed.

Talking about AR reviews is exactly the opposite from what this forum stands for. I would discount his views significantly and limit it to science and disclosure that he uses in his review - which will get you to a zero value right off the bat.