Better Amp better soundstage?

[kemmler3D]

Not sure I get this bolded part.

As far as I understand, music (or how it is mixed) is the most important part of getting a wide soundstage. Everything else being equal, some music just doesn't have spatial cues or effects and won't sound wide ever. The next thing is the wider speaker radiation and the smaller difference between the on-axis/off-axis response to get quality reflections.

So yeah: music, speaker radiation and placement, room symmetry and acoustic treatments, DSP.

Please correct me if I'm missing something.

Agree with what you wrote here.

What I was referring to was that spatial cues in recordings come more from mids and highs than bass.

If an amp lacks power you'll clip bass first, so even if your amp was running out of power it wouldn't tend to affect spatial cues right away.

 

[Greenman]

What I was referring to was that spatial cues in recordings come more from mids and highs than bass.

If an amp lacks power you'll clip bass first, so even if your amp was running out of power it wouldn't tend to affect spatial cues right away.

The spacial cues are some of the more delicate/subtle elements in the recording, so if the amp is running out of grunt then yes, clearly massive bass will not be produced correctly, but it will impact those spacial cues to (I surmise) at least as noticeable an amount. However this is easy to test, just listen at a lower level, if the soundstage returns then this could be the issue, if not then there are other issues.

 

[kemmler3D]

The spacial cues are some of the more delicate/subtle elements in the recording, so if the amp is running out of grunt then yes, clearly massive bass will not be produced correctly, but it will impact those spacial cues to (I surmise) at least as noticeable an amount. However this is easy to test, just listen at a lower level, if the soundstage returns then this could be the issue, if not then there are other issues.

Agree, IMD / THD can obscure spatial cues, which will start to be audible one way or another as the amp runs out of power.

 

[Pareto Pragmatic]

I know I'll get my head in the gallows with this response, but I'll say absolutely! Last week I tried the wiim amp, Marantz M1, YAMAHA R-N800A and Hegel H190 on the same set of speakers (REVIVAL AUDIO SPRINT 3) in the same setup/room. The latter three were somehow similar in overall sound, but the wiim amp sounded very different - and unfortunately not in a good way.

I have not looked at the other amp measures, but the wiim amp has load dependency in its frequency response, which is like a part of what you heard. On the bass end, I do find with my whopping 2 examples of budget amps I have had at home that the bass is not quite there with these TI based budget designs compared to (good) pricier options. In isolation they sound good, but A/B, not so much.

BTW, those impressions are from when I had a 2 amp 2 speaker switch in place, and level matched SPL to < 0.5dB.

To the general question. In my experience, harmonic distortion will affect sound stage. More THD will be "bigger" but the location of instruments will be less locked down, more blurry. That's true if the THD bump comes from an amp (tube, vintage), or from increased sidewall reflections from toeing speakers out. That's based on my impressions and measurements in my room over the past 2 years or so with 5 different amps (vintage, avr, 2 TI based amps, and a purifi amp.)

 

[Schollaudio]

I've worked with several class d modules and found even the cheapest to have good sound stage. Simple tube amps can have good sound stage. Some prosound amps have good sound stage.

FWIW it's not hard or expensive to find am amp with good sound stage.

 

[CK.]

Hello all,

I came across this video review of the denon 3800 avr from Andrew Robinson, who claims that with all being equal (speakers, placement, room correction off etc etc), there was a significant difference in stereo soundstage between this avr and others such as the onkyo rz50.

Check timestamp 7:00 - 7:30 of the below video which also shows graphically the difference.

Do you think there is any merit to it?

Many thanks!!

 

[Mart68]

Guys, I came across this video (timestamp 7:00 - 7:30), which is a review of the denon avr 3800, and the reviewer claims (and shows graphically) that there is a significant difference in the size of the soundstage between that and the onkyo rz50. This is with all other parameters being equal, speakers, room, placement, romm EQ off etc.

I am reluctant to think that this is completely made up. What could be the reason?

His graphic is just showing what he perceived in his sighted, uncontrolled comparison. He's got nothing there to back up that claim.

Even his graphic only shows a small difference in the three receivers. Like after dismantling one set up, putting the new amp in, and listening again, he can really remember that the first one had a slightly (in comparison to the distance between the speakers) wider image.

I'm sure he thinks he does, but testing people shows they don't really recall what they heard even just a minute previously with any accuracy.

Even a small difference in volume could account for that and there's no indication he used anything but the spl markings on the volume controls to level match, which isn't remotely good enough.

Plus he talks a lot of nonsense about the 'tone' of the different amps so I think he is just another audiophile, with no real knowledge to pass on.

 

[SIY]

claims

Operative word.

But hey, he drew rectangles! RECTANGLES! How could you want more?

 

[DVDdoug]

"Absurd claims require absurd evidence!"

 

[popej]

room correction off

Who cares?

 

[EWL5]

Why is anyone surprised? The RZ50 has a more powerful amp! Often folks pit the 3800 against the RZ50 because of retail price but that’s a mistake!

It should be 3800 vs 7100/RZ30
or
4800 vs RZ50

Amp power makes a difference, people!

 

[kemmler3D]

There are real graphical representations to show width of soundstage*... in the studio producers will rely on a vectorscope, for example:

If he ran the audio through one of these and showed a difference, it would be worth paying attention to. Illustrating your thoughts with drawings on a photo is not as good.

*Or at least, the determinants of soundstage that go into a recording / signal. Soundstage actually happens in your mind and is mostly influenced by speaker and room.

If you wanted to make a serious argument about soundstage pertaining to electronics, you'd at least try to dig up some distortion (phase or otherwise) graphs.

 

[staticV3]

Amp power makes a difference, people!

In stereo soundstage?

 

[EWL5]

In stereo soundstage?

The FTC ratings, by which we compare these AVRs, is literally for 2 channels!

RZ50: 120 W/Ch (8 ohms, 20 Hz–20 kHz, 0.08% THD, 2 channels driven, FTC)

TX-RZ50 9.2-Channel THX Certified AV Receiver | Onkyo

The Onkyo TX-RZ50 AV Receiver will revitalize your home entertainment set-up with groundbreaking DIRAC room correction technology. Shop Now.

onkyo.com

3800: 105W/ch Power Output (8 ohm, 20 Hz - 20 kHz, 0.08% 2ch Drive)

AVR-X3800H | Home Theater Receiver

The Denon AVR-X3800H is a 9.4 Ch. 105W AV receiver for home theater enthusiasts with Dolby Atmos, 8K Ultra HD, DTS:X, and HEOS® Built-in streaming.

www.denon.com

Why is this still a mystery in 2024?!!!

FTC Primer: https://hometheaterhifi.com/technic...quirements-for-amplifier-power-output-claims/

 

[SIY]

The FTC ratings, by which we compare these AVRs, is literally for 2 channels!

So no significant difference.

 

[EWL5]

So no significant difference.

If you ratio the power b/w the 2 AVRs, you may find a similar ratio for Mr. Robinson's soundstage rectangles.

If y'all want real power, you'll offload at least the L/R channels to a stereo amp!

 

[SIY]

If you ratio the power b/w the 2 AVRs, you may find a similar ratio for Mr. Robinson's soundstage rectangles.

Divide it by the square root of pi and you have the height of the pyramid of Cheops in cubits.

 

[Blumlein 88]

Divide it by the square root of pi and you have the height of the pyramid of Cheops in cubits.

I thought it was by the square root of the Golden ratio for pyarmids?

 

[SIY]

I thought it was by the square root of the Golden ratio for pyarmids?

That was last year. Audio progresses.

 

[kemmler3D]

Apparently soundstage is measurable in watts, who knew? Here we've been trying to correlate speaker dispersion with psychoacoustic phenomena and the qualities of the room when we should have been looking at the amp spec sheet all along. How silly!