Best effort room and audio system build

[Adi777]

Needless to say, I disagree with those that say infra-sonics aren't beneficial. I do agree, however, agree that those moments in music are rare.

Organ music and electronic only?

 

[Bugal1998]

Hmm, what about JBL Synthesis SCL-1?
Maybe Meyer Sound, Wisdom Audio, Procella? Maybe yes, maybe no

That's exactly right! Maybe... Or maybe not...

I've said it this way to others: If my system were a basketball player, I would want it to be a solid player in the NBA, but it doesn't have to be the Michael Jordan/Kobe Bryant/[pick your player] of audio systems.

 

[Sal1950]

Said another way, I could ask what specific gear should be replaced to have a clearly and significantly superior sounding system against the priorities I outlined? I honestly have no idea...

Move it to my house ???
Yea, that's the ticket.

 

[Bugal1998]

Organ music and electronic only?

So far yes. But I haven't tested extensively... For example, the intro to Josh Groban's live rendition of Remember When it Rained with Judith Hill might benefit (not sure what the frequency response looks like, so can't say for sure).

If someone was seeking bang-for-the-buck in a music system (which I wasn't), I would say they could probably skip the infra-sonics, but that isn't at all the same as saying they don't matter when present in the recording.

 

[Bugal1998]

That's one hell of a Hi Fi my friend.
I'm jealous in the extreme.

Thanks, Sal!

 

[Adi777]

So far yes. But I haven't tested extensively... For example, the intro to Josh Groban's live rendition of Remember When it Rained with Judith Hill might benefit (not sure what the frequency response looks like, so can't say for sure).

How many Hz do the JBL M2 play down to?

 

[Bugal1998]

How many Hz do the JBL M2 play down to?

Give me a few days to measure in-room and I'll let you know.

 

[Sal1950]

How many Hz do the JBL M2 play down to?

JBL M2 Reference Master Monitor Review

Let's see how this goes, shall we? :) I can't post a link directly to my site (since Amir has blocked it) and I'm not about to do the whole copy/paste thing (many have mistaken my reviews for Amir's and I don't want to perpetuate that). So if you want to see the written review, the full suite...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Also

JBL M2 Master Reference Monitor

JBL M2 Master Reference Monitor

www.erinsaudiocorner.com

 

[audiofooled]

Give me a few days to measure in-room and I'll let you know.

In your original post you've said something about your subjective impressions of bass performance. Like it's almost as if it isn't there, even though it is there in abundance. I see what you mean, to me this is something I would call the out of bass, without of bass... Tight, articulate, present, yet totally non intrusive to the sound stage, no matter how powerful. Subjective impressions aside, I would love to know if this is due to flat FR at LP, even FR throughout the room, low distortion, or maybe something else? I would love to see if some of your measurements shed some light to this. Also, do you feel simultaneous bass frequencies as layered throughout the stage, and with enough SPL, through your body?

Anyway, I love how your project turned out, time and resources well spent!

 

[Adi777]

JBL M2 Reference Master Monitor Review

Let's see how this goes, shall we? :) I can't post a link directly to my site (since Amir has blocked it) and I'm not about to do the whole copy/paste thing (many have mistaken my reviews for Amir's and I don't want to perpetuate that). So if you want to see the written review, the full suite...

www.audiosciencereview.com

I know this, I was asking OP how many Hz are M2 cut off

 

[Mr. Widget]

Well done! based on my experience in this area you have made all the right choices for your needs. It's too bad you need a roll down screen because Stewart's Harmony G2 material is acoustically and visually much better, but I understand the need for that compromise.

Even though your project was far from inexpensive, I think you maximized your bang for the buck. Really nicely done. Thanks for sharing!

 

[Bugal1998]

Well done! based on my experience in this area you have made all the right choices for your needs. It's too bad you need a roll down screen because Stewart's Harmony G2 material is acoustically and visually much better, but I understand the need for that compromise.

Even though your project was far from inexpensive, I think you maximized your bang for the buck. Really nicely done. Thanks for sharing!

Thanks for the comments/feedback, Mr. Widget!

Interesting screen commentary... I could mount a fixed frame G2 to the front wall, but then I'd need a seriously bright projector, and I've only been planning on an NZ9 or equivalent. And the screen may be a distraction for 2-channel listening, but I suppose I shouldn't completely rule it out.

You've given me something to think about!

 

[Bugal1998]

In your original post you've said something about your subjective impressions of bass performance. Like it's almost as if it isn't there, even though it is there in abundance. I see what you mean, to me this is something I would call the out of bass, without of bass... Tight, articulate, present, yet totally non intrusive to the sound stage, no matter how powerful. Subjective impressions aside, I would love to know if this is due to flat FR at LP, even FR throughout the room, low distortion, or maybe something else? I would love to see if some of your measurements shed some light to this. Also, do you feel simultaneous bass frequencies as layered throughout the stage, and with enough SPL, through your body?

Anyway, I love how your project turned out, time and resources well spent!

Hard to say definitively what accounts for the sense of transparency, but I know it comes down--at least in part--to frequency response. I say this because listening in the bean bag chairs doesn't offer the same sense of transparency as the MLP, and without MSO completed the frequency response varies audibly across those positions.

Toole's research also suggests we don't hear modal ringing in the bass region, so I really suspect it's frequency response.

An absolute absence of rattles, combined with no noticeable floor resonances (concrete floor) probably also contributes to the transparency. Lol, I rattle tested the room pre-drywall, post-drywall, post false-wall installation, and post lighting and acoustic treatment installation.

I'm not sure what you mean by layering in the Soundstage, but I think the answer to your question is "yes". Bass sounds follow the spatial cues of the associated overtones and higher frequency sounds, so in some tracks the bass sounds small and focused, other times it's room filling, and other times there can be elements of both.

 

[FeddyLost]

I'm also not seeking bang-for-the-buck, per se

For sure. But your rational approach supposes that you do only what is really needed.
As an apartment dweller focused on stereo I've never had an option to extensively explore usefulness of infrasub.
I note down exemplary installations "from the real world" and sometimes don't understand applied solutions immediately due to my limited experience.

However, the infra-sub is clearly beneficial on tracks with sub-bass frequencies, including a number of live tracks.

Ok, so it's one more option that should be planned in good entertainment room.
Unfortunately, not cheap one.
I bet not many commercial movie theatres have separate infrasub channel.

I rattle tested the room pre-drywall, post-drywall, post false-wall installation, and post lighting and acoustic treatment installation.

With your equipment applied it's a must.
Otherwise some big movie explosion would come in person due to some bad joints and missed screws.
But you can really bring in live drumkit and don't worry about consequences.

By the way

All walls and ceilings are floating via metal spring or rubber isolation mounts (per specifications provided by Nyal

So, it's not the whole room in the room spring floated and in theory sound transmission through foundation > walls is possible?
Or your floor is made directly on ground and false walls and ceiling are decoupled, so there's no hard link to other house structures for vibration?

 

[audiofooled]

Hard to say definitively what accounts for the sense of transparency, but I know it comes down--at least in part--to frequency response. I say this because listening in the bean bag chairs doesn't offer the same sense of transparency as the MLP, and without MSO completed the frequency response varies audibly across those positions.

Toole's research also suggests we don't hear modal ringing in the bass region, so I really suspect it's frequency response.

An absolute absence of rattles, combined with no noticeable floor resonances (concrete floor) probably also contributes to the transparency. Lol, I rattle tested the room pre-drywall, post-drywall, post false-wall installation, and post lighting and acoustic treatment installation.

I'm not sure what you mean by layering in the Soundstage, but I think the answer to your question is "yes". Bass sounds follow the spatial cues of the associated overtones and higher frequency sounds, so in some tracks the bass sounds small and focused, other times it's room filling, and other times there can be elements of both.

That's what I was thinking, in the end, most of it is frequency response related, even though how you actually get there is a rather complex matter.

Yes, this is what I mean, overtones shaping the spatial cues but at the same time weight and presentation perceived elsewhere (depending on material), thus allowing for mental decomposition and critical listening/visceral feeling of the low frequency spectrum. But regarding time domain, it all seems instantaneous, effortless and just a plain and simple tonality perception. And multiple cues over here, over there and sometimes everywhere...

 

[Bugal1998]

For sure. But your rational approach supposes that you do only what is really needed.

You got it! With a bit of irrational obsession mixed in of course.

Ok, so it's one more option that should be planned in good entertainment room.
Unfortunately, not cheap one.
I bet not many commercial movie theatres have separate infrasub channel.

I think so, but others disagree... And you might decide you agree with them. I enjoy the few infrasonics I've experienced so far, and they're among the tracks most likely to elicit a 'play that again!' from guests. But for pure music enjoyment it's far (far!) down the list of 'nice to haves'. I'm not sure what to tell you in an apartment scenario.

I don't personally know of any commercial theater that has infrasonic playback capabilities.

So, it's not the whole room in the room spring floated and in theory sound transmission through foundation > walls is possible?
Or your floor is made directly on ground and false walls and ceiling are decoupled, so there's no hard link to other house structures for vibration?

The double stud wall and flooring sits directly on the basement slab. However, the double stud wall, and drywall on all other walls and ceiling 'float' via isolation clips (spring metal and/or rubber mounts) to reduce sound transmission to/from the rest of the house structure. They're attached to the rest of the house, but without hard mechanical coupling. It's all fairly standard soundproofing.

The existing home was built with noise reducing floor joists, and has sound blocking drywall in key areas throughout the house as well, which likely contributed to a better than expected outcome.

And in theory yes, sound could and does transmit through the slab to the foundation walls, but sound transmission through the slab is minimal in my case, because:

1) The slab has been cut in between the double stud wall, so there's no mechanical contact between the theater floor and the rest of the basement
2) The perimeter foundation walls have a fibrous board between the slab and foundation walls that reduces sound transmission

 

[FeddyLost]

And in theory yes, sound could and does transmit through the slab to the foundation walls, but sound transmission through the slab is minimal in my case, because:

1) The slab has been cut in between the double stud wall, so there's no mechanical contact between the theater floor and the rest of the basement
2) The perimeter foundation walls have a fibrous board between the slab and foundation walls that reduces sound transmission

So, in fact your floor have no direct coupling with other home constructions but the foundation ground.
I think only one better solution would be full room-in-room floating on springs or sylomer/sylodamp.

 

[Bugal1998]

So, in fact your floor have no direct coupling with other home constructions but the foundation ground.
I think only one better solution would be full room-in-room floating on springs or sylomer/sylodamp.

That's essentially correct. And the concrete slab is sitting on 8 inches (0.2 meters) of gravel, which I doubt transmits much sound or vibration.

 

[Mr. Widget]

Interesting screen commentary... I could mount a fixed frame G2 to the front wall, but then I'd need a seriously bright projector, and I've only been planning on an NZ9 or equivalent. And the screen may be a distraction for 2-channel listening, but I suppose I shouldn't completely rule it out.

You've given me something to think about!

From looking at your photos I don't think your screen will be particularly large so the NZ9 should do quite well. The Sony 7000ES is also quite good. I suggest you compare the two. The JVCs are the darlings of the AV forums, but some viewers prefer the image quality of the Sony. Either will give you a stellar image.

 

[Bugal1998]

From looking at your photos I don't think your screen will be particularly large so the NZ9 should do quite well. The Sony 7000ES is also quite good. I suggest you compare the two. The JVCs are the darlings of the AV forums, but some viewers prefer the image quality of the Sony. Either will give you a stellar image.

Will definitely compare before buying. The planned screen is 145" diagonal 16x9, and I'd like 30 ft-lm (ideally with full P3 coverage) with headroom for laser aging out to at least 10,000 hrs (assuming linear dimming).

The other consideration is that the room design assumed a drop down screen, which would be spaced away from the front wall allowing the L/R speakers to be flush with the front of the screen when slid into their theater positions. Placing the screen on the wall would allow reflections back onto the screen from the speakers, eroding contrast performance and possibly color accuracy.

Edit: Not to mention that the speakers would become a visual distraction of their own