Benefits of using expensive DACs

[knownothing]

Ones with valves and horns.
Keith

No.

 

[krabapple]

No, I don’t “know”.

Well that can't possibly be anyone's problem at this point, but your own.

 

[ahofer]

I started a blind test thread (below). There’s been more since (I’ve added a few at the end), and a lot of old ones are link-rotted. But maybe the best way to convince you would be to try one of Archimago’s tests on your own, or @Blumlein 88’s test where listeners can’t tell the difference between signals that have been converted ADC-DAC-ADC eight times.

I don’t think you’ll find many proper double-blind tests between well-designed DACs alone, but you’ll find much more extreme tests of DAC transparency that make the former comparison seem kind of useless. Our audible thresholds for *hearing* differences are really laughably coarse, except for amplitude, where we seem to be able to pick up very small differences.

Catalogue of blind tests

I thought this thread on Head-Fi was a valiant effort to put together blind tests that have been performed over the years. Given that there have been many more (I'm thinking Archimago's tests, among others), it would be fun to open source a complete list...

audiosciencereview.com

 

[knownothing]

What are those?

Here is my idea. A "very high quality system" is a "system" where all components meet a certain level of measured individual performance as a starting point and where the capability of the amplifier comfortably meets the impedance requirements of the transducers across the full frequency spectrum (including to near subsonic bass which almost assures the need for successful incorporation of subwoofer). Cables should be of adequate quality, construction and gauge to pass digital and analog signals with accuracy and isolation from external interference. All this should be placed and arranged in a room with adequate power supply on an isolated circuit from the panel to the wall and with room treatment to reduce reflections and standing waves and careful placement of transducers relative to the listening position and wall boundaries to help create some realistic facsimile of a stereophonic sound stage. Room correction algorithms like Dirac can help 'fix' some deficiencies, but I prefer to evaluate new gear with no room correction in place to see what it does to performance on its own. If the power supply to your building is noisy, some power conditioning may help/be needed. This has been my approach. My listening room at home was purpose built from the studs out to achieve some of these requirements. Headphone setups can greatly simplify some of these requirements but have limited ability to generate the full illusion of sound stage that can be accomplished with attention to detail in a listening "system" consisting of power/gear/room/placement. Please share your idea @voodooless.

 

[knownothing]

I started a blind test thread (below). There’s been more since (I’ve added a few at the end), and a lot of old ones are link-rotted. But maybe the best way to convince you would be to try one of Archimago’s tests on your own, or @Blumlein 88’s test where listeners can’t tell the difference between signals that have been converted ADC-DAC-ADC eight times.

I don’t think you’ll find many proper double-blind tests between well-designed DACs alone, but you’ll find much more extreme tests of DAC transparency that make the former comparison seem kind of useless. Our audible thresholds for *hearing* differences are really laughably coarse, except for amplitude, where we seem to be able to pick up very small differences.

Catalogue of blind tests

I thought this thread on Head-Fi was a valiant effort to put together blind tests that have been performed over the years. Given that there have been many more (I'm thinking Archimago's tests, among others), it would be fun to open source a complete list...

audiosciencereview.com

Thank you

 

[raindance]

Now's maybe a good time to point out that a Toyota Yaris and a Ferrari Testarossa will get you to the grocery in pretty much the same time if you obey the speed limit.

Actually, the Toyota will be easier to park and will actually fit in narrow streets, so you might actually get there quicker. Plus you won't have to stop for petrol on the way.

 

[VientoB]

Those that are "resolving" enough to reveal the difference, of course. -As usual.

What difference is there? After all most DACs measure well enough to be resolving enough well past the limit of human hearing.

 

[Old_School_Brad]

What difference is there? After all most DACs measure well enough to be resolving enough well past the limit of human hearing.

I was but jesting..
It's a common remark among audiophiles with golden ears to claim that "your system isn't resolving enough."

 

[VientoB]

I was but jesting..
It's a common remark among audiophiles with golden ears to claim that "your system isn't resolving enough."

Ah, yes. That old chestnut.

 

[knownothing]

What difference is there? After all most DACs measure well enough to be resolving enough well past the limit of human hearing.

If I were designing a well-controlled human subject listening test with replication, the one area I would likely examine first between otherwise well measuring DACs would be small measured differences in FFT Spectrum of White Noise @44.1 kHz to see if that has any statistically relevant impact on perceived sound - especially with respect to perception of sound stage.

 

[voodooless]

A "very high quality system" is a "system" where all components meet a certain level of measured individual performance as a starting point and where the capability of the amplifier comfortably meets the impedance requirements of the transducers across the full frequency spectrum (including to near subsonic bass which almost assures the need for successful incorporation of subwoofer

So that is basically any modern competently designed equipment and plenty of vintage stuff as well.

 

[solderdude]

If I were designing a well-controlled human subject listening test with replication, the one area I would likely examine first between otherwise well measuring DACs would be small measured differences in FFT Spectrum of White Noise @44.1 kHz to see if that has any statistically relevant impact on perceived sound - especially with respect to perception of sound stage.

That will not be saying much unless the noise has been recorded for several minutes at least due to the random nature of amplitude and frequencies present in noise.
So any small differences seen might not be FR of the gear but rather of the noise.
You can of course null noise.

 

[knownothing]

So that is basically any modern competently designed equipment and plenty of vintage stuff as well.

Yes. The room design and construction and the placement in the room of transducers and listener are probably more important - as long as the gear is accurate. I honestly think many listeners have their priorities askew in that regard. Headphones set ups are one thing, but you can have piles of expensive and well measuring audio bling and if your listening space has real problems... you have real problems. I would evaluate any human subject study with that in mind. Headphones can be lovely, but they only get you so far down the road to the illusion of two-channel music reproduction.

YMMV

kn

 

[voodooless]

expensive and well measuring audio bling

The point is that well measuring doesn’t have to be expensive. In fact, price is a bad indicator of objective performance.

 

[knownothing]

The point is that well measuring doesn’t have to be expensive. In fact, price is a bad indicator of objective performance.

Agreed.

 

[dshreter]

My preference for those DACs is stable and independent of the weather, what I ate recently, how much sleep I had the night before, or whether I am happy, mad or sad. This perceived difference is repeatable. All three of these DACs would be considered audibly transparent by ASR convention as I understand it (SINAD >=89). So why do I like those two DACs better?

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[knownothing]

This is your last chance. After this, there is no turning back. You take the blue pill – the story ends, you wake up in Audiogon and believe whatever you want to believe. You take the red pill – you stay in Audio Science Review, and we show you how deep the rabbit hole goes. Remember, all we're offering is the truth – nothing more.​

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[ahofer]

 

[Beave]

If I were in a showroom, and I had listened to them each once, yes, volume matching would be critical. Putting them in and out of my system and listening carefully to each of them over several months and listening with both headphones and speakers in near field at many different volume settings with varied material from classical to jazz to electronic or dance music, I have figured out what each of the DACs are doing. The most obvious difference is that one of the DACs is great with electronic or hip hop music in that leading edges are sharp and pronounced, but is more fatiguing to listen to over longer stretches and just can’t reproduce orchestral music like the other two DACs. For me, it is what it is.

And how do you know that those perceived differences are not due to small level differences and/or purely psychological factors due to you knowing the brand, price, and aesthetic of what you are listening to?

 

[unpluggged]

And how do you know that those perceived differences are not due to small level differences and/or purely psychological factors due to you knowing the brand, price, and aesthetic of what you are listening to?

Or just your mood even.