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Benefits of using expensive DACs

How about this: whenever you claim that one DAC is more 'fatiguing' than another, instead of relying on strained arguments, just acknowledge that it could well be a mistake from sighted bias or level mismatch.

To verify one of these alternatives (real intrinsic audible difference, or mistake -- one of which is far more likely than the other, in most cases, btw) , more rigorous comparison is needed.

Acknowledge that you have not done it.

Because that's the truth.

(Better still, don't bother ASR with such claims in the first place.)
 
It's a matter of what you want. You can get something pretty darned cheap that has distortion and noise well below the human audibility threshold. Expensive DACs may have features that lower priced DACs don't have. Then there's the satisfaction some people get from having the best possible performance. Also there's appearance. You may prefer a certain look to go with other components or need a specific size.

I'm annoyingly utilitarian and want performance that is better than I can hear. It's function over form for me. I don't think people who have different criteria are wrong.

It's a matter of why you claim to hear what you hear.
 
But, I am just wondering, who here have conducted such a blind test of any HiFi equipment with human subjects that you would deem statistically rigorous?
That is un-necessary if you are simply wanting to back up your statements with evidence.

You can do a test yourself with just one subject (you) and prove that you can hear something (or fail to prove it).
 
Probably worth starting a new thread for this since it always starts with more questions than answers!

What else do you have in your system (or plan to have), what features do you need (inputs, balanced etc) ... what's your budget?
I would start one, but my little experience here says it's not gonna attract many input that way:/

Kinda not sure whether it should be a streamer+dac combined etc. or all differently parts on the chain.o

I'd like to watch tv on this one too, it's gonna be a man cave!

There is a Silent Angel B1T streamer only, but with this there is no chance to listen to tv. DAC would be a denafrips. Power amp i have no idea yet, but would need volume control.

Budget for these parts would be like 3K.

Open to ideas! These parts should be possible to resell, and I am open to buy used too.
 
1)Audibly Transparent - lots of cheap DACs reviewed on this site, and most should have the connections you need (doesn't really matter)
2)EQ incorporated - more limiting, but Wiim and Fiio have it, as well as others
3)Dynamic Loudness incorporated - Now there's only one DAC left, for like $1100, tho.

The last part is important to me, but YMMV.
Any specific combination you recommend?

Just posted above.
 
I would start one, but my little experience here says it's not gonna attract many input that way:/

Kinda not sure whether it should be a streamer+dac combined etc. or all differently parts on the chain.o

I'd like to watch tv on this one too, it's gonna be a man cave!

There is a Silent Angel B1T streamer only, but with this there is no chance to listen to tv. DAC would be a denafrips. Power amp i have no idea yet, but would need volume control.

Budget for these parts would be like 3K.

Open to ideas! These parts should be possible to resell, and I am open to buy used too.
Adding TV suggests HDMI Arc if possible

WiiM Ultra

If you want to spend more look at the Eversolo range: DMP A8 perhaps.

Nothing will sound better than these, but you might like some features or looks.

Personally I wouldn't spend more than the Eversolo - you are way past diminishing returns at that point.
Your system though, your choice
 
Adding TV suggests HDMI Arc if possible

WiiM Ultra

If you want to spend more look at the Eversolo range: DMP A8 perhaps.

Nothing will sound better than these, but you might like some features or looks.

Personally I wouldn't spend more than the Eversolo - you are way past diminishing returns at that point.
Your system though, your choice
You just nailed exactly my preference limit, the A8!

Than got fond of the thought to get a fancy separate DAC, but found this thread lol.

I'd need a Poweramp too with at least 200wpc though... Thoughts?
 
I am not against expensive objects, in this case DACs, indeed…they often carry with them that mysterious charm that just looking at them makes you rub your hands together… but I expect: that they are at least at the level of the high-average of medium-high range objects or alternatively that they offer technical or sound characteristics that are totally different from the high-average of medium-high range objects...
 
I am not against expensive objects, in this case DACs, indeed…they often carry with them that mysterious charm that just looking at them makes you rub your hands together… but I expect: that they are at least at the level of the high-average of medium-high range objects or alternatively that they offer technical or sound characteristics that are totally different from the high-average of medium-high range objects...
Do any meet those expectations?
 
Do any meet those expectations?
alas, these days I'm still looking... whether they are Dacs, amplifiers, smartphone cars... I'm still looking... flattening and sharing layouts and concepts towards the bottom seems to be the watchword these days... only the names change, or rather the brands, but all things considered, the content in the shiny boxes is sadly always the same...
 
If you spent more than 100$ on a DAC, you can be quite sure that you get a good sound. The chance to find a bad sounding DAC is really small. I bet no one here can name one in the >100$ class that is classified by all listeners as audible bad.
Better/ worse in most cases is a question of different levels. Sometimes a missmatch can happen or a piece of the electronics broken.
Many here want to tell you DAC sound is all important, but just changing the angle of your speakers will give a more pronounced sound difference than a 100$ and some 10000$ dac may have. It is the same problem and solution you will find (some after many years, some never) with cables. If you have reached 100% there is no other wire that is able to give you 102%.
So pick the one that fits you best. With HDMI for TV the choice is quite easy. So around 300$ will get you your 100% of what you need.
 
alas, these days I'm still looking... whether they are Dacs, amplifiers, smartphone cars... I'm still looking... flattening and sharing layouts and concepts towards the bottom seems to be the watchword these days... only the names change, or rather the brands, but all things considered, the content in the shiny boxes is sadly always the same...

If your main interest is electronic jewelry, I'm sure that could make you sad.

If it's transparent performance, getting the job done matters more. So think about why 'the content' is so often ('always') 'the same'.
 
You just nailed exactly my preference limit, the A8!

Than got fond of the thought to get a fancy separate DAC, but found this thread lol.

I'd need a Poweramp too with at least 200wpc though... Thoughts?
In addition to the WiiM Ultra, you should also check out the latest version of the Bluesound Node (2024). If you can do without HDMI, you could also check out the

Cambridge Audio MXN10​


As for an amplifier, what is your budget and what speakers will you be driving.
You just nailed exactly my preference limit, the A8!

Than got fond of the thought to get a fancy separate DAC, but found this thread lol.

I'd need a Poweramp too with at least 200wpc though... Thoughts?
In addition to the WiiM Ultra, you should also check out the latest version of the Bluesound Node (2024). If you can do without HDMI, you could also check out the Cambridge Audio MXN10.

As for an amplifier, what is your budget and what speakers will you be driving? Why do you think you need 200W?
 
That is un-necessary if you are simply wanting to back up your statements with evidence.

You can do a test yourself with just one subject (you) and prove that you can hear something (or fail to prove it).
I can figure out a way to test the three DACs using a DBX setup using both headphones and speakers in room. I need to convince someone to help out.

I have done one blind test on digital coax cables that I will write up and share here when I get a minute. It was not a DBX test where the subject was asked to identify which cable was playing, but the subject was blind to the swaps.

kn
 
I can figure out a way to test the three DACs using a DBX setup using both headphones and speakers in room. I need to convince someone to help out.

I have done one blind test on digital coax cables that I will write up and share here when I get a minute. It was not a DBX test where the subject was asked to identify which cable was playing, but the subject was blind to the swaps.

kn
You have to be careful about a recognized bias to hear a difference where there is none. This famously tripped up Stereophile in their attempt to read a positive result.


The basic problem is that your respondents were (as you sort of acknowledge in your footnote on p.17) biased to respond "different"—ie, that they could hear a difference between the amplifiers being compared. In fact, it can be calculated from your Table 3 that 2228 (approximately 63.1%) of the responses were "different." Given this fact, and the fact that overall the amps really were different on 53.6% of the trials, the expected performance by chance can be calculated as approximately 50.9%. (This calculation is based on the assumption that only the bias to respond "different," and not the actual situation, determines responses. The number of correct responses expected by chance is then 0.631 (the expected proportion of "different" responses) x 1892 total "different" trials, plus 0.369 (the expected proportion of "same" responses) x 1638 total "same" trials. (The result of this calculation is about 1798, or 50.9% of the total.) This may seem like a small variation from your assumed chance level of 50.0%. In fact, however, the overall percent correct of 52.3% does not differ significantly from the correct chance level of 50.9%. (The Chi-square with one degree of freedom is approximately 1.34.) Therefore, the data do not show a statistically significant tendency to discriminate between amplifiers
 
It's a matter of why you claim to hear what you hear.
I know what I can hear and have the audiogram to prove it. Unfortunately it proves that my hearing is bad. Actually it's bad enough to notice without benefit of a test administered by an audiologist at my HMO. ;) Decent hearing aids improve my hearing dramatically. I still top out at about 8KHz. Getting old sucks.
 
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