Bass direction is audible

[EJ3]

No, it just shifts the first reflections to the front/back wall, floor or ceiling.

What about downward firing woofers?

 

[prerich]

No, it just shifts the first reflections to the front/back wall, floor or ceiling.

So what happens if the ceiling, corners, and back wall are also treated and you have thick carpet with 1.5 inch carpet "cushion" between the floor and carpet?

 

[Julf]

So what happens if the ceiling, corners, and back wall are also treated and you have thick carpet with 1.5 inch carpet "cushion" between the floor and carpet?

The usual kinds of treatment don't really work very well below 100 Hz.

 

[kemmler3D]

So I just set up stereo subs in my office (snagged a couple of Bic F12s for $250 total, could be worse) ... they're symmetrically placed in the corners along the front wall.

After EQing everything and getting the bass nice and flat at MLP, I put on a test tone and ping-ponged it left to right... I think I lose the ability to tell which way it's coming from around 80hz, and definitely can't under 60hz. I feel like the direction is quite apparent around 100hz and above.

Not blind, not scientific, take it as you will, just a quick casual test, I knew which way it was supposed to be coming from most of the time so I could have imagined the whole thing, etc. etc.

I don't think it really does anything for the stereo image of music, so far haven't noticed anything anyway. That said, I couldn't name any songs with really noticeable stereo bass anyway...

 

[Sokel]

So I just set up stereo subs in my office (snagged a couple of Bic F12s for $250 total, could be worse) ... they're symmetrically placed in the corners along the front wall.

After EQing everything and getting the bass nice and flat at MLP, I put on a test tone and ping-ponged it left to right... I think I lose the ability to tell which way it's coming from around 80hz, and definitely can't under 60hz. I feel like the direction is quite apparent around 100hz and above.

Not blind, not scientific, take it as you will, just a quick casual test, I knew which way it was supposed to be coming from most of the time so I could have imagined the whole thing, etc. etc.

I don't think it really does anything for the stereo image of music, so far haven't noticed anything anyway.

I find much easier to locate subs using very time-limited tones,using normal continuous sines feels like it builds up to the point that can be confusing even at highs if for a long time.
Aggressively low-passed without any hint of going higher than the test needs and short.

 

[kemmler3D]

I find much easier to locate subs using very time-limited tones,using normal continuous sines feels like it builds up to the point that can be confusing even at highs if for a long time.
Aggressively low-passed without any hint of going higher than the test needs and short.

Interesting, just tried it again with "beeps" instead of continuous tones, it definitely made it easier to tell, but if I am honest I definitely can't tell below 50hz even with short tones... I thought I could, but I realized it was just because the volume envelope was too sharp and actually creating higher harmonics / cutting the waveform audibly. When I did a slightly longer fade I couldn't even convince myself I could hear the direction below 50hz if I tried.

 

[Sokel]

Interesting, just tried it again with "beeps" instead of continuous tones, it definitely made it easier to tell, but if I am honest I definitely can't tell below 50hz even with short tones... I thought I could, but I realized it was just because the volume envelope was too sharp and actually creating higher harmonics / cutting the waveform audibly. When I did a slightly longer fade I couldn't even convince myself I could hear the direction below 50hz if I tried.

50Hz is just about right,that's where my limit is too more or less in a decent room.
I see other special signals mentioned but haven't tried them yet.

 

[andrewtungnguyen]

full range speakers with natural roll offs in to bass frequencies when properly delay/level matched with subs can decrease bass localization significantly. I recommend fronts that respond down to 40hz or below with goal of delay/level matching at 50hz. LFE+main for stereo music, LFE for multichannel source content.

 

[dlaloum]

full range speakers with natural roll offs in to bass frequencies when properly delay/level matched with subs can decrease bass localization significantly. I recommend fronts that respond down to 40hz or below with goal of delay/level matching at 50hz. LFE+main for stereo music, LFE for multichannel source content.

Yep... full range speakers are always the better alternative.... with subwoofers providing a supporting role, rather than being the main bass and mid-bass driver.... (the mid bass is where the localisation kicks in substantially)

 

[andrewtungnguyen]

Yep... full range speakers are always the better alternative.... with subwoofers providing a supporting role, rather than being the main bass and mid-bass driver.... (the mid bass is where the localisation kicks in substantially)

Absolutely 100%. Another method is to have a steep low pass filter for subs as they cross with mains, combined with mains naturally rolling off. This really decreases bass localization because everyone is singing the midbass.

 

[sfogg]

There is some research about other auditory clues from multiple sources of bass. Not exactly directionality but more a sense of spaciousness and envelopment. Dr. David Greisinger researched this while at Lexicon and added functionality to Lexicon processors to try to reproduce some of the effects of a hall on bass reproduction in a listening room. This was called Bass Enhance.

http://www.davidgriesinger.com/asa05.pdf
http://www.davidgriesinger.com/overvw1.pdf
http://www.davidgriesinger.com/sfaes.pdf

In my old setup, with subs directly to the sides of the listener, the effects of Bass Enhance processing was fairly obvious. I described it as sort of making the side walls feel like they were melting away and that the acoustic space was larger. It wasn't direction per se, but perceivable. In my current room with stereo subs up front (much shallower angle) the effect is considerably less noticeable.

 

[andrewtungnguyen]

There is some research about other auditory clues from multiple sources of bass. Not exactly directionality but more a sense of spaciousness and envelopment. Dr. David Greisinger researched this while at Lexicon and added functionality to Lexicon processors to try to reproduce some of the effects of a hall on bass reproduction in a listening room. This was called Bass Enhance.

http://www.davidgriesinger.com/asa05.pdf
http://www.davidgriesinger.com/overvw1.pdf
http://www.davidgriesinger.com/sfaes.pdf

In my old setup, with subs directly to the sides of the listener, the effects of Bass Enhance processing was fairly obvious. I described it as sort of making the side walls feel like they were melting away and that the acoustic space was larger. It wasn't direction per se, but perceivable. In my current room with stereo subs up front (much shallower angle) the effect is considerably less noticeable.

I believe it. Decreasing localization may not magically widen a soundstage but it definitely increases the perceived spatiality of sound.

 

[dlaloum]

Absolutely 100%. Another method is to have a steep low pass filter for subs as they cross with mains, combined with mains naturally rolling off. This really decreases bass localization because everyone is singing the midbass.

That was always the traditional approach with adding subs to full range speakers - look at reviews for REL subs dating from the 1980's and 1990's....

And basically a system that is well sorted for Music, will handle Home Theatre easily.... Music is typically more sensitive/critical to flaws than movies are!

Based on which principles - I have set up 4 x full range speakers in my 5.1.4 setup, even the center channel goes down to 55Hz, according to spec, the mains are rated down to 24Hz and the surrounds down to 40Hz...

I am looking forward to Dirac ART's mass market availability, and its ability to leverage the full range speakers to further optimise my setup.

For pretty much everything except the deepest bass and subsonics, subs are redundant with this setup - the LFE channel does exactly what it says on the label "Low Frequency Effects".

 

[dlaloum]

There is some research about other auditory clues from multiple sources of bass. Not exactly directionality but more a sense of spaciousness and envelopment. Dr. David Greisinger researched this while at Lexicon and added functionality to Lexicon processors to try to reproduce some of the effects of a hall on bass reproduction in a listening room. This was called Bass Enhance.

http://www.davidgriesinger.com/asa05.pdf
http://www.davidgriesinger.com/overvw1.pdf
http://www.davidgriesinger.com/sfaes.pdf

In my old setup, with subs directly to the sides of the listener, the effects of Bass Enhance processing was fairly obvious. I described it as sort of making the side walls feel like they were melting away and that the acoustic space was larger. It wasn't direction per se, but perceivable. In my current room with stereo subs up front (much shallower angle) the effect is considerably less noticeable.

Sadly his work at Lexicon has been left to wither on the vine at Harman....

Would be nice to see Logic16 along with the many adjustment options appear on the upper models of D&M AVR's now that Harman owns them.... but given its absence from Arcam AVR's I don't hold out much hope.

 

[sfogg]

Sadly his work at Lexicon has been left to wither on the vine at Harman....

Would be nice to see Logic16 along with the many adjustment options appear on the upper models of D&M AVR's now that Harman owns them.... but given its absence from Arcam AVR's I don't hold out much hope.

Yes, it is a shame that Harman hasn't done more with his work and research in home products. Or Quantum Logic Surround for that matter.

I haven't heard L16 so don't really know how it compares to the Logic 7 in bedford Lexicon products. I know JBL also had Logic 7 Immersion in at least a couple of products. I think that was L7 but with height channels but I don't think it had any of the configurability that was in original Lexicons. The HK receivers that had L7 didn't either. SDEC4500 could add height channels to the SDP40/MC12.

 

[sigbergaudio]

There are a lot of myths around this, and countless threads on this forum. These ideas are entrenched by manufacturers like Rel and people who get these ideas confirmed by their own bias.

Our active speaker systems are crossed at 90-100hz, and the general feedback is that soudstage and immersiveness is among the best people have heard, and no one is complaining about localization. This is also my own experience during development. I think a lot of localization issues is either imagined or a consequence of less than competent subs that exhibit issues either due to cabinet/port resonances or harmonic distortion, both manifesting as higher frequency components. These will of course be more easily audible and localizable than the fundamentals.

So done right, I have seen no support of the claims in the last few posts in this thread.

 

[Sokel]

There is some research about other auditory clues from multiple sources of bass. Not exactly directionality but more a sense of spaciousness and envelopment. Dr. David Greisinger researched this while at Lexicon and added functionality to Lexicon processors to try to reproduce some of the effects of a hall on bass reproduction in a listening room. This was called Bass Enhance.

http://www.davidgriesinger.com/asa05.pdf
http://www.davidgriesinger.com/overvw1.pdf
http://www.davidgriesinger.com/sfaes.pdf

In my old setup, with subs directly to the sides of the listener, the effects of Bass Enhance processing was fairly obvious. I described it as sort of making the side walls feel like they were melting away and that the acoustic space was larger. It wasn't direction per se, but perceivable. In my current room with stereo subs up front (much shallower angle) the effect is considerably less noticeable.

And a new one:

https://assets.swoogo.com/uploads/4646601-673c03ab61c93.pdf

 

[andrewtungnguyen]

Most setups don't have that luxury, so crossover strategy still matters a lot in practice. But if you send me a setup I will whole heartedly agree

 

[dlaloum]

There are a lot of myths around this, and countless threads on this forum. These ideas are entrenched by manufacturers like Rel and people who get these ideas confirmed by their own bias.

Our active speaker systems are crossed at 90-100hz, and the general feedback is that soudstage and immersiveness is among the best people have heard, and no one is complaining about localization. This is also my own experience during development. I think a lot of localization issues is either imagined or a consequence of less than competent subs that exhibit issues either due to cabinet/port resonances or harmonic distortion, both manifesting as higher frequency components. These will of course be more easily audible and localizable than the fundamentals.

So done right, I have seen no support of the claims in the last few posts in this thread.

Yes - Harmonic distortion on a sub will mostly be higher frequencies, within the localisable range.

And the "acceptable" distortion levels on subs are often of the circa 10% orders of magnitude.

If subs were held to State of the Art speaker distortion levels (ie: under 1%)... perhaps many/most subs would not be localisable!

However with the state of most subs today in the marketplace, and with subwoofer standards (such as they are) accepting very high distortion levels (many of the distortion products being well within the audible/localisable range).... the problem is obvious, altough oft overlooked!

 

[kyuu]

If subs were held to State of the Art speaker distortion levels (ie: under 1%)... perhaps many/most subs would not be localisable!

On the other hand, many "full range" speakers are not achieving those distortion numbers in the bass frequencies at the necessary SPLs either. "SOTA" ones maybe, but then I wouldn't compare those against subs that are anything but "SOTA".